Clear Values, Easier Planning
KRIS FLAMMANG
You have an interesting history personally and professionally. Tell us how you got to be where you are.
DONNA RICE
My husband I are both estate planning attorneys. We enjoy working together. We've been married for 25 years and still like each other, even though we're in business together.
KRIS FLAMMANG
That takes some work.
DONNA RICE
It does. Sometimes people are totally amazed that we enjoy working and living together. We have a very large blended family. We've both been married before. Professionally, both of us at different times chose to center on estate planning because of the family values we hold and a desire to use our professional knowledge to help other families.
Of course, planning ahead makes a huge difference in how things go at the end of life. A lot of times people wait too long, and then there are limits to what you can do as far as preserving estate and maybe even having the right people making decisions for you. If you wait too long and you're not competent, you can't choose who will be making those really critical decisions at the end of life. We came into this practice with a desire to really work with families, help them, and be a compassionate professional dealing with those very touchy issues.
KRIS FLAMMANG
There isn't enough compassion in the world right now, that's for sure. You’ve been in practice a long time. Knowing what you know now, if you could go back in time and give your younger self some advice, what would it be?
DONNA RICE
I think I would tell myself to relax a little bit, first of all. We put ourselves through so much agony sometimes when we're young, trying to make sure everything's just right. Sometimes we miss the priorities in life. I think the older I get, the more I understand how important the true priorities of family and love and keeping those relationships healthy really are.
I've experienced divorce, so I've been through that relationship breakup part. I've seen many clients go through relationship issues. I would say, be kind to yourself and to the others around you and do everything you can to maintain those relationships in their most healthy format.
KRIS FLAMMANG
That's not easy work, but it's definitely worth it.
DONNA RICE
It is. In our professions, when you're working with people who are facing end of life and preparing to die, you begin to realize that people stop thinking about their jobs and their toys. They think a lot about the people they've interacted with in their life, whether it's family or friends. Their life starts restricting down to a small group of folks, and it's usually not the people from the office.
KRIS FLAMMANG
Right, it’s like the saying that no one on their deathbed ever said they wished they had gone to work more.
DONNA RICE
Exactly, and it is so true. If we could live a little bit more with that in mind, I think we'd make some different choices along the way.
KRIS FLAMMANG
I recently heard a great quote on this, "There isn't enough guilt to change the past, nor is there enough anxiety to change the future." I think that’s a good lead-in to discussing the things you focus on. In simple terms, how do you define the term elder law? It covers such a big area.
DONNA RICE
We really focus on the end-of-life planning, preparation for disability. Statistically, more of us are going to be disabled because we live longer. We have better healthcare. It's not quite such a quick transition from illness to death for most of us. There's a period of varying degrees of disability. We focus a lot on how to plan for that, how to choose people that are going to make good decisions for you, how to prepare those people to make good decisions for you.
Not all of our children want to talk about those things. But the more we can encourage them to engage with us, the better our care will be as we become ill. And then, of course, preserving the estate. Preserving as much wealth as possible for the family or perhaps charities you want to be the beneficiary of your wealth. Preserving that as much as possible and avoiding spending down on nursing home care. How do you plan for either long-term care insurance, or if the estate is smaller, Medicaid eligibility, things like that. Elder law is all of that.
KRIS FLAMMANG
How do you define spend down protection?
DONNA RICE
The term itself is as you spend your wealth to care for yourself during a catastrophic illness. Spend down protection is putting in place either the right plans like long-term care insurance, or healthcare powers of attorney, or other general powers of attorney that have specific language in them, depending on the state you live in. That will allow you to take advantage of rules that you may gift certain amounts of your wealth to family members, or you may be able to do some repairs on the house or things like that, which will help you become eligible for assistance earlier, but do it legitimately within the bounds of the rules. Most people don’t know this. They don't spend their time reading Medicaid guidelines.
KRIS FLAMMANG
You have some history with revocable trust and the language that went into it. Take me through that and why you think it's such a powerful tool.
DONNA RICE
We like the trust-based planning mainly because of control. During your lifetime you are able to set the terms of your trust, all within the legal realm of the state and the Feds. You can choose the people who are going to step in and assist. You can determine ahead of time who you want to be your beneficiaries and how you want them to receive it. More and more we're dealing with families that have some level of dysfunction. They have addiction issues with children or grandchildren, and sometimes criminal issues. How do you take all those family and life issues and boil it down to a plan that goes into effect immediately? That's another reason we like the trust. They're effective now. It's not waiting for a probate court to determine what's going to happen. It takes effect as soon as you sign it and fund it and begin living within the terms you've put in place. I think it gives clients a lot of peace. They know they have a plan ahead of time and a lot of control.
It's changeable during their lifetime. And they do change it. We have many clients who change trustees over the course of the life of their planning documents, or they change the distribution based on changing circumstances with children or the death of a child. That’s something we all hope never happens. But if it does happen, what happens with the grandchildren or the surviving spouse of your child? We can plan for that. All those relationship dynamics begin to play into that type of planning.
You can sit down with somebody who will talk you through those issues, raise some issues that perhaps as a layman you haven't thought about, and then say, "What would you want to happen?" Here's a great example, personally. We absolutely adore our daughters-in-law. Our children married young and we have been with those girls for so long that we chose to write into our trust documents that if they were still married to our son at the time that he passed away, a share of that estate would go to the daughter-in-law, and the rest would go on down to the grandkids. You can make choices like that out of love and planning ahead if you know there are options to be had. That's why we like trust-based estate planning. Lots of control and lots of options.
KRIS FLAMMANG
You mentioned dysfunction. There’s plenty of that around. If you're in a family that doesn’t have some level of dysfunction, you're probably not looking closely enough.
DONNA RICE
That is exactly right. When we were first practicing, we were dealing with the World War II generation. We've now seen a progressive breakdown of families, to the point where we've even had clients who were in fear for their lives when a spouse died, because of the wealth. They had people who were far enough gone that they were afraid they'd kill the spouse to get to the estate earlier. That's sad. That's a breakdown culturally and societally that we need to address.
KRIS FLAMMANG
Unfortunately, that’s not an easy fix. Let’s go to something more upbeat. What’s your favorite area of your practice? What do you most enjoy right now?
DONNA RICE
It’s always dealing with the people. One of the big problems I have if I sit down with a set of clients, especially if we get along, is I talk too much. I enjoy talking to them. I enjoy family life. I enjoy finding out what people have done right and what they've done wrong, and then trying to glean the wisdom from that. I chose to practice in estate planning because of family, and I enjoy working with clients for the exact same reason.
KRIS FLAMMANG
I know there are online options for this, but the internet does not know what the right questions are to learn the right things about the person. One of the biggest benefits of using a trusted professional is they're going to use their wisdom to help you, based on your answers and your life experiences.
DONNA RICE
That’s so true. You just hit on it. Part of that kind of conversation is getting to the root of what's going on with a particular family. You don't know that if you're trying to quickly turn it around. Clients shouldn’t hear, “We only have a half hour, fill out your documents and then we'll create a plan for you.” Most of our meetings are a minimum of two hours to just spend time getting to know them, getting to know their children. Sometimes people are suspicious. “Why are you asking me so many questions? Why do you need all this information?” But it really does help to create a dynamic plan when you look at the people picture and the resources picture together, and then you can talk a little bit about what their goals are.
Here's an example. Years ago, we worked with an elderly couple. They didn't have children of their own, but they really loved their nieces and nephews, so they set up a college fund. They’ve since passed away but that fund is still ongoing. There are children getting a nice reminder that somebody loved them and cared about them and wanted to make sure they have a good start in life. If you spend time and talk with the clients, you can get to something where they feel like they've blessed somebody, and then long-term there's a legacy being created.
KRIS FLAMMANG
I like that. It’s the blessing, and then there’s the legacy. What do you think is the biggest misconception about what you do?
DONNA RICE
The first thing that comes to mind is the belief that lawyers are all mean and greedy and nasty. I've had to address that issue with clients. I also think there’s a misconception that what we do is all money-based. Sometimes we get a lot of resistance to talk about assets. Clients try to avoid telling us about assets because they’re worried that’s how the cost of the plan is determined.
That’s pertinent, because the larger the estate, the more tools you need to use to make sure it accomplishes the purposes the family has in mind. But it isn't just about getting into the pocket of the client. It's about figuring out how to use those assets for the benefit of the family. For example, farming families usually have a lot of value tied up in land, but don’t have lots of cash. How do you plan for those things? We need the information to create the proper plan and give the best advice. That misconception that we just want to know about their money is not true at all.
KRIS FLAMMANG
It’s like if you want a really good diagnosis from your doctor, then you have to be completely upfront and honest with them about what your symptoms are, or your medical conditions, or your family history, or the way you’re living, because if you’re incomplete or hiding things, you’re not going to get an optimal outcome.
DONNA RICE
Yes. That is exactly right. We have had clients who weren't completely honest with us about the number of their assets, and then when somebody passes away, the results aren't optimal. You might end up with an asset going through the probate process because it wasn’t in the trust, and we could have easily avoided it.
KRIS FLAMMANG
You have a lot of life experience. I’m curious, what's your first memory with money?
DONNA RICE
My family was adamant about teaching us how to work. When we were in grade school, my parents owned apartment buildings, and my father had us do work for them. He’d pick us up after school and we’d work for a few hours. We kept timesheets, and we earned a dollar an hour. We learned very quickly that money is a cause and effect. You work and you get a result. You get payment. They also began early on to teach us how to create a credit score. I borrowed money to buy a bike when I was really young. This was at the little local bank, and I made my $10 a month payment. That was my first experience of working with a bank and being a big girl. Then over time you buy cars and homes and so forth.
KRIS FLAMMANG
Bigger numbers, but same concepts. Doing those timesheets probably helped you with math. If you did them incorrectly, you weren’t paid the right amount.
DONNA RICE
It’s funny, we did the same with our kids. One time, my youngest was at the office, and he was supposed to be doing whatever he had been assigned to do, but I saw that he was calculating on a piece of paper. I asked him what he was doing and he said, "I'm calculating how much I'm making per minute." He was really tuning in on what that dollar was going to do.
KRIS FLAMMANG
Wow! I probably know the answer to this, but I'll still let you address it. What do you think your biggest life accomplishment is?
DONNA RICE
Absolutely it’s family, and that flows from both the personal and the professional experience. The people I've seen that have the most joy, whether they’re facing the end of their life or still have years of living it, have done well with their families.
We have worked very hard, and very consciously, to make our adult children and now our grandchildren interactive in all parts of our lives. We work together with some of our children. And we have close interactive relationships with all of them, even if it's long distance. Just today, I was on FaceTime with a grandson who has a medical treatment coming up. We can’t be with him because he lives in Louisiana, but technology allows us to be together and keep those relationships a lot closer.
KRIS FLAMMANG
You can never replace being in person with your family, but this is probably the closest thing we can get to it. Is there something that you personally are really passionate about?
DONNA RICE
Yes, grandparenting. I absolutely love being a grandparent. I used to laugh when people would get so excited about talking about their grandkids and think, "Oh, those crazy old ladies." Now I'm one of them. I don't have the fold-out accordion picture file like they used to, but I have an iPhone loaded with pictures and I’m always happy to share.
But something has come out of this professionally. We’ve started a new business, “Grandparenting A to Z.” We really are digging into and reaching out to grandparents. They’re struggling with different issues now because of changes in our culture and our society. The distance factor is one issue. Dysfunction is another. How can we be the best grandparents possible? How can we create that legacy, be very intentional about what we're passing down as far as family values and family priorities? How do we build family in the 21st Century when it looks so different than it used to because of distance and technology? How do you get your grandkids out of their tablets long enough to have a conversation with them and find out who they are and then teach them some things? Grandparenting has definitely become my passion and is turning into a new business too.
KRIS FLAMMANG
What are the plans for that?
DONNA RICE
We have a website, and a lot of social media going on. We’re on Facebook and Instagram and Pinterest. We're having a lot of fun. We're creating content. We're talking about issues. There's a book in the works. I actually have several ideas for books, and the first one that I'll be working on is a devotional for grandparents. How do they pray for their children? If they're not happy with how they're grandparenting, how do they change that? How do you begin to pray through fixing family issues? I'm a great believer that it's never too late to start.
I've seen I've seen a lot of families with dysfunction. I've seen people hold grudges for 20 years over a pocket watch. My adamant advice to clients has always been, and always will be, to make those things right before you die. There comes a moment when we'll all be gone and those things won't be fixed on the other side. Why not make that first step and do the best you can? The other person, of course, has to respond, but you'll never regret trying. You'll regret if you don't.
Unfortunately, I have seen that. I think one of the hardest things about the type of law we practice is seeing families who don't change and don't try to reconcile with one another. Somebody ends up dying bitter and angry. The family's bitter and angry. That's painful to watch. It's not a good legacy.
KRIS FLAMMANG
Let's shift gears back to the business. What do you see as the biggest business opportunity for you right now?
DONNA RICE
We have shifted gears a little bit into some of what you’re doing, financial planning. We actually are training one of our staff and he'll be testing and going into some of that in Indiana. There's a symbiotic relationship between the professions, as you’re aware. It can work extremely well, or it can go extremely poorly. The more trust and confidence you can build between financial planners, attorneys, insurance agents, the better. You can help your clients in a much more well-rounded way.
Once you've talked to them, especially from the perspective where you're talking about death planning and all those people who matter the most to them, and what happens to their material possessions when they die, there is a trust that's developed. They want to be able to ask you, "Who do I go to for this part or that part?" We've worked really hard over the years to find people. We've had some great ones. We've also had some bad experiences. So, we’re broadening into that a bit with a financial planning firm we've worked with in Indiana for quite some time, and we're just taking it to the next level.
KRIS FLAMMANG
On the flip side of that, what do you see as the largest obstacle in the way of your business, something tough you're dealing with or having difficulty with?
DONNA RICE
I think the internet has created an interesting situation for people to diagnose themselves and do all their own planning. But it gives them access to knowledge without always complete understanding. I imagine you probably run into some of this too, and get second-guessed because people are Googling everything and looking for answers.
There is an abundance of information out there, but understanding how the parts actually work and what will really happen based on the legal climate or the financial climate is a different matter. That's where a professional can bring something to the table that somebody without experience doesn't have. Years ago, I had a conversation with clients who were really upset about the probate process. We had advised trust-based planning for some of the reasons we discussed earlier. When they came in to sign their documents, they were just really upset. "Why do I have to do this if I want to avoid probate? Why can't my kids just sell the house after I die?” I literally spent the first half hour of the meeting telling them, “Because there are laws where you have to jump through the hoops." Sometimes I think the access to information has done a disservice to people getting the correct advice, because they just don't know. If they haven't spent their career focusing in an area, they don't know the ins and outs of how it actually works.
KRIS FLAMMANG
I touched on this earlier. The internet is full of information, but there’s a lack of wisdom there. What a good advisor does is more of an art form. It's taking that collage of information and using their experience to create something that’s a customized plan. That’s something the internet has not conquered yet.
DONNA RICE
It's not personal. It's just regurgitating papers or documents or statutes or whatever. It's showing it to us, but no understanding and no wisdom in how to apply the knowledge.
KRIS FLAMMANG
Is there something new you're learning or working on? I know it's hard to keep up with all the changes that are taking place. But is there something right now that you're focusing on getting up to speed on?
DONNA RICE
Because I've shifted into so much of the grandparenting business, it’s technology. Technology is interesting. It's a wonderful and horrible thing all at once. You enjoy it. We can do something like this Zoom meeting, and see each other and have a great conversation. But some of that background, learning how to work with that in our modern business world and how to adapt and stay relevant and stay current, is always the fight in our technology driven world.
I have two young women working with me on the grandparenting business, and I so appreciate what they bring into the business as far as technology, new understanding of how to market via the social media world, how to reach people and communicate with the messages that we have. That's a challenge and it's new, but it's good. Keep stretching the gray matter as much as I can.
KRIS FLAMMANG
Do you think that's where your industry is heading?
DONNA RICE
Yes and no. Cliff and I have this conversation a lot, and it comes back to that question about people doing their own documents online. I think we'll continue to see that, but I also think we're seeing in some ways a gravitation back to the personal. Even as people use the information they have access to online, we're still communal creatures. We still like to interact with one another. We still like that personal touch or being able to ask a question and get a human response. Certainly, statutes change over time and you have to adapt, and marketing changes and you adapt. But I think if we can still build relationships, there will always be room for success with that in mind.
KRIS FLAMMANG
They say that the cycle of fashion repeats itself every 20 or 30 years. I just hope bell bottoms never come back again.