Values-Based Estate Planning
KRIS FLAMMANG
You have a really interesting history of how you came to be where you are today, so take me through that and what led you to starting your own practice.
AMBER SAUNDERS
Someone just asked me that this morning, actually. I think I ended up starting my own practice because I knew I was going to be a terrible employee. I was always going to be a lawyer. My mother said I told her that when I was around five years old. To me, that means I was meant to do it. But I didn't know that I was going to get into estate planning. Because of Law and Order and all those shows, I thought I was going to do criminal defense. But when I went to court and my client went to jail, I started crying and I said, “Well, I'm not doing this anymore.” After thinking things through, I ended up here.
KRIS FLAMMANG
If you could go back in time and talk to the younger you, what would you tell that younger person who started that business? Are there some things that you wish you knew then that you know today?
AMBER SAUNDERS
I think it's probably like this for all business owners. From law school, taking the bar, doing all those things, I knew how to be a lawyer, but I didn't know how to be a business owner. I didn’t know how to own a law firm. Instead of just hitting the ground running, trying to practice law, finding clients, doing all those things, I would have taken more time to figure out the business of the law firm, because that's where most of the mistakes came from. You can be a great lawyer all day, but if you don't know how to manage the practice and manage clients and bill correctly, you're doing all this work and not getting paid. Figuring that out was the biggest learning curve.
KRIS FLAMMANG
That is so true. I think about someone who is really good at baking pies, so everyone tells them they need to have a pie business. But when they go into business, they find they just like baking the pies. They don’t like everything else that goes along with it. How did you handle that? Did you bring in people that had that expertise, or did you just do it yourself?
AMBER SAUNDERS
I screwed it up along the way. I took every course I could probably take through the process when I realized I was screwing it up. Now I have help. But in the beginning, I didn't. I just said, “This can't be that hard.” Yes it can.
KRIS FLAMMANG
You would think, you got through law school, so you should be able to do everything else.
AMBER SAUNDERS
Right. I did it that way for around five years, and then I went through a couple of boot camps in different programs, and read every book, and I figured out it's the same for everybody. It comes down to systems. If the business can't run without you being there all the time, you don't really have a business: you have a job.
I said, “Okay, I need to write it down.” I need to be in the business of writing down everything I do and every experience I want the client to have, so everybody's on the same page. Because part of my problem was that at first, I didn’t have employees, it was just me, and even when I did get help, I wasn’t clear on the expectations. I thought they’d be resourceful and figure it out, and then they were frustrated because they didn’t know what I expected from them. I'm sure every business owner goes through something like this unless they learn from watching someone else. It's just part of the growing pains.
KRIS FLAMMANG
I think you came through it really well. I know sometimes this is tough for attorneys, but is there an easy way to explain why a comprehensive estate plan is so important?
AMBER SAUNDERS
The best way for me to explain it in a simple way is through a story. My grandmother had healthcare directives and powers of attorney naming my mother and my uncle. She also made sure my step-grandfather was covered so if something happened to her, no one could kick him out of the family house.
When my grandmother had a stroke that turned into dementia, she needed care. Because she did everything in advance, my mother and my uncle were able to get into the accounts to make sure her insurance would take care of that, so she had nurses and was able to stay in the house.
When she needed it, her estate plan was there for her. On the other hand, my step-grandfather didn’t have a plan, and when he died before Grandma, his kids from his first marriage came to ransack his estate. My grandmother was the beneficiary on the bank account, but somehow the bank let them get into it, and they literally emptied it. If he had just taken care of some of this when my grandmother did her planning, we would have been able to avoid all of that.
KRIS FLAMMANG
That's so powerful. Just having the forethought and doing the planning in advance reduced so much conflict and so many problems later on when it was time for those things to be done. That's a great testament to why you are passionate about what you do. I want to talk about something really interesting on your website. Can you elaborate on the concept of value-based planning?
AMBER SAUNDERS
As an entrepreneur, I think of it like this: We may think a product or service is great, but if whoever's supposed to be buying it doesn't value it, then they're not going to pay for it, and there's not going to be any urgency. I've found that a lot of people, when talking about estate planning or a will, don't really think it's a big deal because they don't understand its value.
Part of my job is communicating with people, and explaining to them that it's not about you, it's about your loved ones. Do you want to leave them with a cabinet full of bills they don't know if they have to pay? I explain to them the value and how this can not just be about death, but about life.
While you're alive, how can it be valuable to you? How can having these kinds of conversations with your loved ones enrich that relationship? Having to sit down with my mother to do her estate plan freaked me out, but it also made me appreciate she's still here and I still have time to spend with her. It makes you value the time you have with those loved ones more. Talking about death doesn't have to be a morbid thing. It can make you value life and make you want to live it to its fullest while you're here. We try to create an environment where people understand that value and communicate that to their family members and make it a different experience, not just one where we're talking about death.
KRIS FLAMMANG
Instead of just drawing up some documents, it's about making a connection between what the person deems to be important in their life, and how the planning they can do—or lack of planning—would either align positively or negatively with those decisions. Is there something you like best about your business right now?
AMBER SAUNDERS
My favorite part of what we do is at the end. The documents are signed, we’ve gone through everything and for clients who choose it, we do legacy interviews. We have a list of questions that they get in advance. They come in, and we record them, and they leave what is almost like a time capsule for their loved one. My father did something similar for me about 20 years ago. It's called A Father's Legacy, and it's a journal that parents can give to their children. You go through it over a year. He started in January and talked about his childhood. In February he talked about love: what he thought the first time he saw my mother, etc. It's like them writing a letter to you but it's a journal. We give that to parents to be able to leave for their children if they want something long. Leaving things is not just about your assets. It's about who you are, what your values are. Those are things that you can pass down as well. We want to talk about who you are, what was it like for you growing up, and things like that.
KRIS FLAMMANG
I bet those videos are so powerful and emotional.
AMBER SAUNDERS
They’re emotional for me too. I also cry.
KRIS FLAMMANG
I can see where doing the interviews would have an emotional impact. Is there a specific area of your practice that you get the most enjoyment from?
AMBER SAUNDERS
It's definitely the estate planning. Estate planning and business, because again, at heart I'm an entrepreneur, I love being around people who are starting businesses or figuring out those things, solving problems.
KRIS FLAMMANG
Do you think there's a big misconception that people have about what you do?
AMBER SAUNDERS
Not to talk poorly about getting documents online, but it's just not the same as being able to work through a problem and speak to someone. So, people may get documents that don’t do what they need done when the time happens. When emergency comes, this document is useless because they wanted to do it themselves. There are some things you can't do yourself. Again, it’s the value. If you love people that much, do you really want them to have some template document that you paid $200 for? If you're building a business that you care about and you want to create a legacy, are you going to try and do it on the cheap or do you want to do it right? You're either going to pay up front or you're going to pay on the back end.
KRIS FLAMMANG
Because if done improperly, it's going to be more costly to fix, or you may not be able to fix it. What are some common blind spots or overlooked areas when it comes to business or estate planning that people don’t see or think about?
AMBER SAUNDERS
I think business people don't realize that they really do need a team. As human beings, we perform better when there's community, when we can bounce ideas off someone else. You can’t see the blind spot if you don’t think there is one.
I used to do this conference called FailCon, and I remember one of our guests had created a device for the medical profession to help with automation. He spent a half million dollars of his own money trying to build it. He thought this would take the medical profession into the next century. But no one would use it. He said he found out doctors liked writing things. They didn't like using all that stuff they weren’t used to. He hadn’t asked his market before building it. He didn't talk to doctors to see what they really needed, because he felt he knew. I think that happens if you're just doing things by yourself and not really trying to find mentors or other people to bounce things off of. You’re not creating a team.
KRIS FLAMMANG
It's amazing what we can convince ourselves of when we’re only consulting with ourselves. That's easy to do. Without identifying them, I'm curious if you have a recent client experience that was really satisfying to you. What problems they were facing, what they were trying to accomplish, and how you helped them to improve their lives.
AMBER SAUNDERS
One of the services we have is called “kids protection planning.” It's really guardianship. Say parents of minor children do a will. The minor children can't inherit, so there has to be a trust of some sort. Even if it goes through a will, the court is going to set up a testamentary trust and then get whatever's leftover to the children when they're 18. But do most parents really want their children to have a huge check at 18? So, instead of letting the court just give the money away, we talk to them about setting up a trust for the child so you can have some sort of stipulation on this money, so the kids are not driving around in a red sports car.
What do you want them to be able to spend money on? Because the parents never really thought about that. You don't know if they're going to have good judgment or not. Not that you want to helicopter them, but you want to make sure they use the money properly. We can set it up so they get 25% of it when they turn 25. They can use it for certain things like education.
The other thing is thinking about guardianship. If something happens to them, who do you want to raise them? What do you want them to know? Do you want them to go to certain schools? I think people feel like they know, but until they have to put it on paper, it's really hard for them to think it through. Do I want them to go to public school? Do I want them to go to private school? Do I want the guardians to have them go to church? Going through that with them is very difficult, but it solidifies the values you have. You have to write it down. When you have to put it on paper, it's really satisfying. It's almost like at that point we have our values and rules as a family because we've had to put it down. We know everybody is on the same page, we know exactly what we're doing. It's so interesting to watch people go through that process, because often they haven’t talked about it beforehand.
KRIS FLAMMANG
I think most people don't. They spend more time planning their next vacation. Let’s switch gears a little. Tell me about your first experience with money. As a child, or maybe as an adolescent, what’s your first memory about money?
AMBER SAUNDERS
I did not really think about money until I was in college. My parents talked about money, but I didn't value it. It wasn't a big deal to me. We probably weren't that well off, but I didn't know the difference. I had a good time as a kid. I was able to do most things.
Then when I was a junior in college, I wanted to go to school abroad, and there was no way my mother was going to let me do it unless I planned it out. So, I did a budget. I figured out exactly how much it would cost, and then I put it on a board and went over it with her, because that’s the only way she would let me go. Which she did. But when I was there, I spent all the money she gave me for the semester in just one month. I couldn't ask her for any more money, so I got a job as an au pair. That was the first real time I had to think about money because I was in the middle of France and she wasn’t sending me anything else.
KRIS FLAMMANG
That's very resourceful. Money isn’t a positive or negative thing on its own, but it can have either a positive or a negative connotation. Have you seen the effects of wealth and money when you're dealing with families going through certain life events?
AMBER SAUNDERS
Circumstance can bring out the best or worst in us. Money is just the tool. If someone is going through a hard time financially, is it really the money, or is it that they don't know how to deal with whatever the circumstance is? They just don't have the tools. I think money gets a bad rap. We don't have good coping skills. I’ll meet with parents who tell me one of their adult children is "more responsible" than the other. I tell them, if you can avoid it, don't have one sibling be the trustee over the money because you're going to cause issues in the relationship. Money is what people use as an excuse to destroy relationships. You avoid that by having a third party manage it. Don't let siblings have to decide for one another, if you can avoid it. Don't make that an issue. They can't get mad at the trustee if it's somebody at a financial company; they don't know that person.
KRIS FLAMMANG
That's really good advice. If you weren't doing what you're doing now, what do you think you would be doing instead? You said you’ve wanted to be an attorney since you were a child, but have you ever daydreamed about other professions you thought you might like to go into?
AMBER SAUNDERS
I just like being around people. When I was in school, I was a server. I loved being a bartender. I love talking to people. That trained me in a certain way to learn people. You have every single kind of person coming to a restaurant. You have to learn how to read people. This person might not be in the mood, or I can joke around with this one, this is who I should talk to, this is who's paying. It helps you with people skills. I could go work at a restaurant and tend bar and be just as happy.
KRIS FLAMMANG
I bartended as well and I fully agree with everything you said. I think everybody should do something like that because of all those reasons you stated so eloquently. I want to talk a little bit about some things you're involved in outside of your practice. Things you’re really passionate about. Talk about Enrichment Prep. Where did you get that idea, and what does it do?
AMBER SAUNDERS
I started Enrichment Prep because my high school homeroom teacher called me when her son was taking the ACT. He had already taken it once and he didn't do well. She remembered that the first time I took it, I didn't do well because I thought I was smart and I didn’t work at it. Then I studied, and I figured out how to take the test, and my score went up and I got a partial scholarship to school. She wanted me to help her son, so I did, and his score went up really well. Then they asked me to come back and teach other kids at the school how to take tests.
It grew from there, and turned into a business. We got some seed funding from a nonprofit called 100 Urban Entrepreneurs that was giving away $10,000 to business owners to start their business. This was after I finished law school, but before I took the bar. I did that for a while, but then I decided I still wanted to be a lawyer, so I took the bar. I ended up closing the company, but before I did, I got a book deal with Peterson's to write a book about test prep communities, which is called Ahead of the Curve.
KRIS FLAMMANG
What was the motivation behind the book?
AMBER SAUNDERS
I had read studies which indicated that tests are probably biased. What I learned when I was studying, which I taught the other students, is that it's not always about the content. It's about knowing how to take a test. The same principles apply when you’re taking any exam, whether it be the GRE or the bar. Some people just don't know how to take tests. They get nervous. Plus, if you don't know anything about the test, how can you take it? If you don't know how many questions there are and what information is on it, you don't know how to allocate your study time. I was just teaching them, “This is the test. You don't have to take it in order, you don't have to go one through 30. Answer the questions that you know you're going to get right.”
So, how do you know that? I taught them how to break it down. “I know I'll get this one right, so I'm going to do that first. Then I can do the other ones.” You take it in a way that maximizes your skills as opposed to doing it the way the test tells you, or in a linear way. It made them feel more empowered. They were taking the test as opposed to the test taking them. Confidence goes a long way.
KRIS FLAMMANG
When you feel confident about knowing what to expect, then your mind is definitely more prepared to perform. Is there something you're most excited about in your business right now? Do you see a big opportunity?
AMBER SAUNDERS
I sometimes feel goals are random. If I have a revenue goal, it's just a number I made up. We were talking about strategic planning and our goal, and I made up a really big one. I want to have the whole floor. I want the firm to grow big enough that we have the whole 21st floor in our building. I don't know how that's going to happen, but we're going work on it.
KRIS FLAMMANG
Well, you can't achieve big goals unless you set them. Conversely, what do you see as your biggest challenge right now in your business or in the industry?
AMBER SAUNDERS
The biggest obstacle in my business is me and the biggest obstacle in the law, I think, is lawyers are very intimidated. There are all sorts of legal services available online. People feel it threatens our revenue, but I don't think so. A computer can’t always give you the answers to things. Sometimes you still need a person. I don't feel threatened by it, but I know a lot of lawyers are concerned about these low-price options for people.
KRIS FLAMMANG
I'd like you to elaborate on that. What do you think differentiates you specifically or your practice from someone just going online and doing that? Because a lot of the estate attorneys I talk to are worried about commoditization.
AMBER SAUNDERS
I think what differentiates us is the value part I brought up. There's no way a computer can think of every single scenario that could possibly happen. You're getting the same document as somebody else. You might need that, but how do you know? It’s just the computer spitting it out. For LegalZoom, you can pay additional money to speak to a lawyer on their team. But either way, you're still going to have to talk to a person. There are ways to get it at a lower price, and there are ways to talk to people. I think price is relative. It's relative to what you're trying to do, what you think is important.
KRIS FLAMMANG
You’ve probably heard this. In the absence of value, that's when cost becomes important. Like in my industry, there’s lots of information online, lots of knowledge, but where’s the wisdom? What you’re saying is spot on. The information is there, but not the wisdom on how it applies to them or even if it applies to them, and whether they should do it. You're still going to need a person to do that. Do you think there's a question I should have asked you or is there anything you want to expand on from what you said earlier?
AMBER SAUNDERS
The thing I'd want to expand on is that even if people don’t think they need a trust, or are concerned about whether to do those things, there are certain things they absolutely have to have. Everyone has to have a healthcare directive or a HIPAA waiver. I think of the Terry Schiavo case. I would never want my family to go through years of battling in court because they don't know what I would have wanted to happen to me. From a healthcare perspective, in times of COVID, we still need that, so it’s clear what to do with our body if we can’t speak for ourselves. You also need a financial power of attorney. If you have a medical emergency, who's going to pay your bills? Can they get in your bank account? Those things need to be done, and if you're a parent, you have to outline what would happen from a guardianship perspective. If something happened, who's going to take care of your children?
KRIS FLAMMANG
Thank you for sharing important advice for parents and others when it comes to estate planning.