Asset Protection Unlocked
KRIS FLAMMANG
Take me through your history of what led you to where you are now, and opening your own practice.
EIDO WALNY
I grew up in Chicago, went to law school in Boston, and came to Milwaukee after I graduated. Milwaukee was a great city for me at the time because it was a smaller market than Chicago, so I figured I could grow my career a bit more quickly here. The cost of living is also better. Chicago is just an hour and a half away, so if I didn’t like it or it didn’t work out, I could always go back home.
I got a job at a big law firm in town, and my first day of work was September 4th, 2001. Then, as a result of the craziness of September 11th, I had a mentor assigned to me, and he turned out to be someone who changed my life because he told me, "This firm can take basically everything away from you. They can take away your office, your salary, your assistant, everything, and they can usher you out the door. But there are two things no one can take away from you, your contact base and your knowledge base. So, whatever you do, always focus on growing those two things and you'll be successful wherever you go."
That was amazing career-altering advice, which I have focused on ever since. After spending 10 years at big firms subsequent to that, I decided that I loved what I was doing but not the setting in which I was doing it. If we just plucked the estate planning group from a big law firm and let it stand on its own two feet, and then contour the business model and the service model and the way we did billing, this could be a successful way of going about estate planning. 10 years later, we've never looked back. It's been phenomenal.
KRIS FLAMMANG
That's a great story. If you could go back 10 years and talk to yourself when you started your firm, what advice would you give the younger you?
EIDO WALNY
Young professionals come out of school and they’re impatient. But in estate planning, more than any other area of the law, you have to be really patient. It's very complicated. There are a lot of people who do it, who don't fully understand it. The concepts are very esoteric in some regards. So, I would say, “Just keep doing what you're doing. Don't get frustrated. Keep chipping away at it. You're on the right path. Eventually things will all work out. When a window opens and a door closes, just do what you have to do to advance.” I think that's good advice for any young professional who from day one thinks that they can run the firm. I certainly thought that. But just give it some time. It will be okay.
KRIS FLAMMANG
You'll get brought down to reality, but then you can build back up from there. That's true.
EIDO WALNY
The world is a big place and it's had a long time to settle in where it has, so change is hard and slow. Even at a very personal level, it's hard and slow, but if you keep chipping away and you're patient and you just don't give up, honestly, it sounds cliche, but it does work out.
KRIS FLAMMANG
Is there an easy way that you like to explain to potential clients why a comprehensive estate plan is important in their lives? What it is and what it accomplishes?
EIDO WALNY
I define a comprehensive estate plan as one that is contoured for the needs of your individual situation. People's situations are not static. Where you were when you were 18, is not where you are when you’re 25 or 35 or 55 or 85. What you need is an estate planning attorney who can sit down and talk to you about what your needs are. I cannot tell you how many times clients have come in and said either "I need a will" or "My situation is simple," and almost always their situation is not simple, or they simply don't appreciate what simple looks like and they almost never actually just need a will.
But they don't know that. Part of our role as attorneys and advisors is education. I would go so far as to say half of my job is education. I know to look at the client's overall situation, their personal situation, their financial situation, their interpersonal situation issues within the family. Then we have to navigate what those are and give them appropriate documents to manage their situation. Those are going to be a little bit different from client to client, and will change over the years. This is what separates a good estate planning attorney from what you find on the internet. The internet documents are static. While they may sound good to an untrained ear, you don't know what you're missing out on. You don't know what those documents are accomplishing or missing.
Legal Zoom can produce great documents, but I can go there and navigate their questions in a way that produces a good result; whereas a lay person is just kind of willy nilly answering questions. The document that's produced at the end for them may or may not be appropriate, but they have no means by which to analyze that. That's the value of having a trained professional work with you to get to a good result.
KRIS FLAMMANG
I think that's great advice. Are there particular areas of your practice that you personally get the most enjoyment out of, that really challenge you mentally, or pique your interest, or that you really get excited about?
EIDO WALNY
First let me say, we have a “Smiles in, Smiles Out” policy. Usually, when a client first meets with their attorney, the client is smiling. Whatever issue they have, whether it's an estate planning issue or a litigious issue, they're happy to talk to someone who's going to help them. So, the client's smiling when they come in. But only a small fraction of those clients are smiling at the end of that process. After they've gone through the grinder and gotten all their legal bills and all that stuff, very few clients are still smiling. Our job, in my view, is to make sure the client is smiling on the way out. When that happens, we’ve done a good job because they've had a positive client interaction with a lawyer, and frankly, that’s hard to do.
I really enjoy that. I like being that lawyer where clients can come in and talk to us and through this process, be happy with the results, be happy with what they've been charged, and know that they've gotten a good result. That's the first thing. We also have a policy of making sure that clients never sign things they don't fully understand. A lot of clients come in with previously drafted documents. When they do, we tell them, "All right, in your own words, explain to us what this pile of paper in front of you is." The most common answer is, "I have no idea. The lawyer put a bunch of paper in front of me, told me to sign it, and I did.”
That’s the result of an hourly rate engagement where the client wants to come in and get out as fast as they can. The fewer questions they ask, the fewer interactions they have with the lawyer, the cheaper the bill is going to be. I should point out we do a lot of our billing as a flat fee so the clients never have to worry about that.
But the synthesis of that is that we had declined an engagement a few years ago that was extraordinarily complicated. There was a lot of business planning, asset protection, multi-generational planning. It was among the most complicated engagements we've ever had.
I pride myself in explaining complicated situations in a very layman's term. But we were on the phone with the client's bank at one point and for whatever reason, I was having a bad day and I couldn't get through to the bank what we were doing. The client said, "Let me take a shot at this." I thought to myself, "Oh God, this is going to be a ride." But I couldn’t have been prouder. The client very adeptly explained to this banker even the most complicated documents we had. I was proud because I knew we had therefore done a very good job explaining to the client in a way where he wasn't just sort of nodding his head, he was really understanding what we were doing, literally to the point where he could explain it to someone else. That was a validation point in my career to know that we were doing things the right way.
KRIS FLAMMANG
That's great. What do you think is a big misconception that people have about your line of work or your area of practice? What do they get wrong?
EIDO WALNY
The biggest misconception hands down is that it's easy, anyone can do it. People think they can hop online and go on Google, and find documents, and save themselves a lot of money and do it themselves. Honestly, that's a position that even a lot of lawyers share, because you see a lot of general practitioners or people who work in other areas, who also do estate planning. It's hard enough for us to stay on top of the changing laws and the client situations and the nuance of everything that we do. I can't imagine what it would be like to try to do this and also several other areas of the law.
I've seen the results of people trying to do a lot of this work online themselves, and it's a train wreck. In most cases, clients would actually be better off having nothing than the documents they've produced for themselves. Again, this goes back to education. I love doing interviews like this and writing articles so we can get this education part out to explain to people that you may think that your situation is simple, and you may believe these documents are simple, but they're not. It's way more complicated than you can probably appreciate. Let us help you.
KRIS FLAMMANG
I agree with you on the “do it yourself” misconception. What do you think is the most overlooked area or blind spot that potential clients have when you meet with them? Something they don’t see as a risk or a potential issue?
EIDO WALNY
A lot of clients come in with the preconceived notion that if they set up a trust or even if they're just doing a will, their children are the ones who should execute all of the documents. “I'll just let my oldest son or my oldest daughter be the trustee for all the other kids.” That’s very common. In fact, a lot of lawyers still allow this. Legally speaking, there's nothing wrong with that. The issue is on a practical level. That’s where I tell clients not to do it. Think about what it would be like if your eldest child had to intervene in the personal situation and finances of their siblings and tell them, "Sorry, I'm not going to give you this money." Often, clients will say it’s okay, their kids have a good relationship. My answer to that is, "They won't after this. Let’s find some other family members or close friends or professionals who can help you. I guarantee, your children will thank you for that decision down the road.”
If you really dig down to why siblings fight when it comes to their parents’ estate, it has nothing to do with the estate itself. It has everything to do with perceived wrongs in third grade. “You got more peanut butter in your peanut butter and jelly sandwich. Your birthday party was always better than mine. Mom always loved you more than me.” This is how things manifest themselves, and those are ugly, dirty, nasty fights. Quite honestly, the only winners in those fights are the lawyers because the fees get out of control. It's really hard and it's heartbreaking in a lot of situations.
KRIS FLAMMANG
Let’s get more upbeat. What do you like best about your business right now?
EIDO WALNY
I think we do things right, to be honest. We set out to do estate planning in a way that I thought served us better internally and the clients better externally than the way it’s done at the big firms. Also, when it comes to the financial service professionals we work with, such as the bankers, the accountants, the insurance agents, the financial advisors, to do things in a way that made more sense to them. And I think we've done a very good job.
Of course, nobody's perfect. We're always refining, but we do things in a way that makes me really happy. The experience we have internally, and others have externally, is exactly what I was hoping to do. There are always tradeoffs. I know we leave money on the table, but I'm happy to do that to sleep better at night and know that we've got the “Smiles in, Smiles Out” policy where clients are happy at the end. 10 years in now, I couldn't be happier with the direction we're going.
KRIS FLAMMANG
That sleep at night factor can be very underestimated in the professional world.
EIDO WALNY
Absolutely. Look, everybody makes mistakes. You could pay your attorney $2,000 an hour and that person is still making mistakes. But when you have a good relationship with your client, it's the difference between the client saying, "All right, let's analyze what happened and figure out how we can fix this,” versus "I don't care. I'm just going to sue the pants off you because this was strictly a business transaction. We had no interpersonal communication. You are just a service provider." That keeps lawyers up at night. I don't want or need that. We have plenty of stress without that. Anytime we can start to develop bridges and laugh with clients and really care about them, that means a lot to me. I really appreciate and enjoy that part of my job.
KRIS FLAMMANG
I think that comes across when you talk. I'm shifting gears here a little bit. What’s your first memory of money? What was your first experience with it?
EIDO WALNY
In fourth grade, my friend George and I were in Mr. Nelson's class in elementary school. Just like every elementary school kid, we would always lose our pencils. Back then everybody drew with pencils, and there was some punishment if you had to ask for one. George and I realized we could buy pencils in bulk and sell them for a quarter apiece. We bought mechanical pencils because they were always sharp, sold them for 25 cents each, and made a fair amount of money doing that. George and I bought comic books with the money we made. We bought cheap, buying in bulk, sold at a profit, and then bought things we wanted. It was a tremendous business lesson in fourth grade.
That year I bought my mom the most amazing Mother's Day gift, and my parents were really concerned about where all the money came from. I remember being super proud when I explained how I could afford that.
KRIS FLAMMANG
That's great. I love those stories. Are there any experiences you can think of in your business that have made you keenly aware of the positive or negative impact of wealth?
EIDO WALNY
The lesson we've learned doing estate planning for as long as we have is that every family has their issues. Whether it's inter-spousal problems, drug or alcohol problems, even the most well-to-do families can have a kid who does heroin. So, we're very strict on confidentiality. We tell clients, "Listen, we can't do our best unless you're honest with us. Let us know what the issues are so that we can plan around them. I can assure you it won't be the first time we've heard it." If a child has significant problems, whether it’s substance abuse or mental health or any such issue, you don't want to dump a bunch of money on them because instead of helping them, you're really hurting them.
Sometimes it takes people a bit of time to admit, “I have a kid with a problem,” or “My spouse and I have a problem,” or, "My parents have issues and we don't know how to help them." Being really strict with confidentiality and being able to connect with the clients and really get them to be honest with us helps them do that. I tell people, "You're not alone. A lot of people have these issues." My advice is to not let that be a reason why you don't do planning. It should be the driving force for planning.
People used to do estate planning strictly for tax purposes. I have never led with taxes in my entire career. If we can pick up tax efficiency as part of the process, great. But estate planning is really about making sure things get to where they need to get in a secure manner, both for you and the recipient. So, be honest with yourself. Talk about your situation and let's plan for that. Then, when we’ve done that and we’ve executed that properly, there are amazing situations where people can exhale for the first time. They’ll know that if they walk out the door and get hit by a bus, their child with a problem isn't going to destroy his life because he’s just inherited a ton of money. Money is a tool and it can be an extreme positive, or an extreme negative. When we can diminish the negativity and increase the positivity, that's a win every time.
KRIS FLAMMANG
They not only get to talk to someone, and possibly tell them things they’ve never told someone about their life, and they also walk out with that smile. They’re relieved that they got it off their chest, and that their estate plan addresses those challenges. What would you say is your biggest life accomplishment so far? This could be personally or professionally or both.
EIDO WALNY
Just like every proud dad, I'm really proud of my kids. I have a 15-year-old son who is an incredible hockey player and really going places, and I've sacrificed a lot to help him. At one point, I was driving 40,000 miles a year helping him. That’s a lot of miles.
Then, my daughter went from being dragged to ice rinks to watch her brother to becoming an accomplished figure skater in her own right. She's incredible. I'm extremely proud of them. When I grew up, my dad was a workaholic. God bless him, he worked very hard to provide for the family. But we hardly ever saw him. He was never at any school events. He didn't encourage us to do extracurriculars. He was proud of us, no doubt. But I don't have a lot of memories as a kid of engaging with my dad. He and I have a better relationship now than when I was a kid.
I'm very proud that for all the success I've had professionally, I've been engaged with my kids. I haven’t missed games and parent-teacher conferences, and I can watch them and see them succeed and thrive and become young adults. It is incredibly fun and rewarding to do that.
KRIS FLAMMANG
That work-life balance is so important. I gave a presentation at an industry conference one time about that. I remember one of my sons asking me, "Dad, aren't you the boss? Aren't you the owner of the business? Then why don't we see you as much?" That was like a knife in my heart. I realized, “I need to get my priorities back in order. I need to get my work-life balance fixed. He’s right, and this isn’t good. I don't want to be just an afterthought.”
EIDO WALNY
That balance is hard because it's also easy for the scales to fall the other direction, where you're so engaged with your family. I have my own hobbies and things that I like to do, and I end up doing them at midnight or two in the morning. I only sleep about three or four hours a night, because I want to do that stuff while still accomplishing all the other things I want to. It's easy to have the scales tilt too far toward family, as opposed to work and life, which starts causing problems at work.
I recognize that this firm is my third baby, so there's a place for that. I do what I need to do to be successful here. I work at night. I work on weekends. I recognize there has to be true balance. When you can recognize that and make sure that your family's getting what they need, the business is getting what it needs, and you’re getting what you need, then life is pretty good.
KRIS FLAMMANG
Outside of your practice, outside of work, is there something that you're really passionate about personally? You said you have interests and hobbies. Where does your passion lie?
EIDO WALNY
I'm my son's hockey manager. I'm his agent, his equipment manager, his attorney. I spend a fair amount of time with that. I also have a side cuff links business. I make cuff links out of mechanical wristwatch movements. And I restore cars. I've restored a 1927 Ford model T. I'm working on a 1964 Chevy Corvair pickup truck right now. I'm also the president of my municipality. That's why I don't sleep at night.
KRIS FLAMMANG
If you had more time and you could do anything that you wanted, what might you be doing instead of what you’re doing now? Is there another profession you thought you were going to choose?
EIDO WALNY
I'd be a truck driver. I love driving. Again, I drove my son a lot when he was younger. A lot of people dread that. I didn't dread it at all. I enjoy being on the road. I enjoy the quietness and listening to the radio. Satellite radio is a godsend. I can just lock into a station and listen to it for a long time, whether it's music, talk radio, whatever. Books on tape are also amazing. I just love being on the road, and I've always told people if I had to hit reset and couldn't be a lawyer for some reason, I would have loved to be a truck driver. Being a race car driver probably would have been a close second, but that’s a bit more dangerous.
KRIS FLAMMANG
They probably don’t expect that. Is there another unique or interesting fact about you that very few people know?
EIDO WALNY
Unless I tell them, they don’t know I literally sleep about three hours a night, even on weekends. I can't remember a time before this happened. I usually go to bed around one to two in the morning and wake up at five, and I’m refreshed, and then I’m pretty engaged during the 20 hours or so I’m awake. It's amazing what you can get accomplished in 20 hours. I might be shaving a few years off the back end of my life, but so be it. My brain is constantly running and I can't just lay down in bed and fall asleep. I have to get myself to the point of exhaustion so I can go to sleep and then wake up and start all over. That happens every day, seven days a week, and it has for at least the last 15 years.
KRIS FLAMMANG
That is certainly unique. In your industry, things are always changing. There’s always talk that laws could be changing. What's the best way that you stay on the cutting edge of your industry? What do you follow or read on a regular basis?
EIDO WALNY
One of the things I do when I'm not sleeping is try to stay up on the articles about what new ideas people are coming up with. What is the prognostication of where the law is going? Even with those articles, I think to myself, what are they missing? What is this going to mean for me? In my entire career, the federal estate exemption amount has only been the same number in back-to-back years once. It's changed every year.
It's one thing to just say that it’s going to change, but it’s something else to ask, “What does that mean? What does it mean to me professionally? What does it mean to my clients? What does it mean to the advice I'm going to give them?” I think very few advisors do that. They are reactive. They don't position themselves in a way that allows them to take advantage of these changes.
When ATRA, the original estate exemption law took effect in 2001, nobody thought we'd ever get to the point that the exemption would be unlimited. For years, I said it’s an inevitability that will happen. That is a big change from an exemption that just a few years prior was at $600,000. Think about that. Most people's homes by themselves could have gotten them over that exemption. Now, it's unlimited. When George Steinbrenner died, he had no estate tax exposure at all. That is a complete paradigm shift.
While I felt I was ready and positioned for what that meant, a lot of people were trying to figure it out at the last minute because they never thought they'd be in this situation. Again, I have a few extra hours in a day relative to other people, but I try every day to put a little bit of time into personal education and personal prognostication so I can be a half step ahead of everybody else. That half step is the difference between success and just making it.
KRIS FLAMMANG
That makes me think about the 1% theory, where you're just trying to get 1% better, and then over time it compounds and you’re far ahead, either in your knowledge or your ability to apply what you've learned in situations. What do you think is the most exciting part of your business right now? What are you really excited about from a business standpoint?
EIDO WALNY
I'm excited about the growth I see in the future. I would say financial services in general is dominated by older people. In the coming years, I think there's going to be an increasingly high rate of retirements and people getting out of the industry, so there's an opportunity for us to continue to grab market share and get better and spread the kind of good work that we do.
We have a national footprint. For a little firm based out of Milwaukee, Wisconsin, I'm really proud of the reach that we have. We are dealing with professional athletes and clients from all over the country and even some all over the world. It’s incredible that we've gotten to this place in a mere 10 years. To be able to grab more market share, continue to bring on talented people and grow and sing our gospel is amazing. I'm really excited about what the future holds.
KRIS FLAMMANG
On the flip side of that, what do you consider to be your biggest challenge right now? A challenge or an obstacle that your business is facing.
EIDO WALNY
In general, not knowing what the future holds in terms of the law is hard, but when you're giving advice to clients, and it's just the best advice you can give based on the information available to you today, not knowing whether that could be completely wrong in six months, is unsettling. It's hard because you have to tell clients, "I know what the law is today. Let's take advantage of that. If things change, we can pivot. Let's be aggressive, but not bleeding edge aggressive that could get you in trouble. Let's leverage opportunities and take advantage of that."
People don't like to do estate planning. They're happy to put it off. People don't want to acknowledge their mortality and talk about these issues. It's easy to put your head in the sand. So, when they finally do, I really dread talking to them about the shifting sands and the fact that this isn't “set it and forget it.” Once you do it, you're going to have to revisit it. Certain clients may need to revisit it sooner than later. But it's the reality of the situation. To me as a professional, change is somewhat exciting. But it's hard to have these conversations with clients, because I know they dread it. So, I put on my happy face and lead them through this cloud, and hopefully maintain that smile on the other side.
KRIS FLAMMANG
The one thing that’s certain is that things will be uncertain. People like certainty. But in a lot of fields, like yours and mine, that isn’t always going to be the case.
EIDO WALNY
If you wait for things to settle down, you'll be waiting your whole life. If, on the very first day of my career, someone had told me, "Call me when things settle down," I still wouldn’t have called them back.
KRIS FLAMMANG
Do you think there's a question that I should have asked you or is there anything you want to expand on that you said earlier?
EIDO WALNY
I would say the biggest issue for people regarding estate planning is getting over that hurdle. Finally acknowledging that there’s no better time than now. Then, if you’re ready to get the process started, what do you do next? I would say your best bet is to reach out to a qualified estate planning attorney. Don't trust what you find on the internet by doing the random Google search. I can tell you that the two best organizations to find qualified estate planning attorneys are ACTEC and NAEPC. Check out those websites. Find qualified estate planning attorneys from one of those two places. I say that not even being a member of ACTEC currently. I just know those are good resources for the public to find people who've been well-vetted professionally so they know what they're doing. You don't want to work with an estate planner who was doing a divorce yesterday or litigation the day before. These are documents that need to work when you need them to work. Sometimes you don't get a second chance at it. So, find a qualified attorney who knows what they're doing. You'd be doing yourself a favor.
KRIS FLAMMANG
I almost think of it as if you have a specific issue, you don’t go to your general practitioner, you get a referral and go to somebody who specializes in that area. The same would apply here. Thank you for sharing your specialized knowledge.