Michael Chen
WHAT SHOULD I KNOW BEFORE PURSUING A LAW DEGREE?
MARIA GEFFERS
Tell us about your background and the moment you realized what you wanted to do.
MICHAEL CHEN
My career journey started in college. I had no idea what I wanted to do with my life, but I had to declare a major. That can be a stressful moment for people who don't know what they want to do. My strategy was to try and explore a lot of different things. One day I came across an interesting opportunity while eating breakfast in the dining hall. I was reading the campus newspaper and saw an ad that said, “Are you interested in competing in mock trials? Come down for an information session.”
I had no idea what a mock trial was, but I liked to compete in different things, so I went down there, and found out that I liked it a lot. Mock trials give students an opportunity to compete against other college students across the country. I discovered that trial lawyers are storytellers who fight for justice for their client. I thought this might be a good career path for me, because I liked arguing and I liked telling stories in court.
In my sophomore year, I went to the career planning office because I thought I should explore this more. The day I went there, it turned out they were putting together an alumnus shadowing program, and I signed up for it. They were matching students with graduates of the school. I was assigned a couple judges in the state of Massachusetts. It was great fun. I got to see them put on their robes and discovered they wore all kinds of things underneath their judge coats. In court, I was fascinated with the arguments the lawyers were making and how they were fighting for the clients. I got to watch a criminal trial, and I thought that was for me. Then when I went back to the career planning office, they hooked me up with jobs at law firms.
Now I had a good idea of what I was going to do after I graduated college. I was going to apply to law school. Eventually, I went to one the largest law schools in the United States, in New York City. When I graduated, I went into real estate law and transactional law. Most people have a good idea of why they want to go to law school, but by the time they graduate, they usually change their minds because they’re exposed to so many opportunities.
That’s how I ended up in real estate law. I was in and out of commercial real estate for about eleven years in New York and California, and then the real estate market crash happened. At first, because I was in commercial real estate and it was a housing market crash, it didn’t really affect me much, but it soon became clear it was more than that, it was an economic collapse. It was a financial crisis. Commercial real estate was affected and so I was looking for something else to do.
This whole time, I had been working with students; high school students, college students, law school students, because I was still involved with my college and law school alumni association. Just like I connected with alums when I was in college and in law school, I was helping students as an alum. People would call and ask what it was like to be an attorney or to work in real estate law. I had people come to my office and shadow me. I even helped my college admissions office interview prospective students.
One of my colleagues asked if I was looking for something to do, and suggested I check out the career counselor position at a small law school east of Los Angeles. I went there and had fun because my job was helping students discover their purpose, their life’s mission, and their calling. Eventually I became the director. I was the head of the whole career services office. My job was to help students find jobs, and that expanded to help people outside of the school, pre-law students and admissions work.
I've now been working in admissions on both coasts of United States for the last seven to eight years. I help the law school uncover and highlight its strengths and advantages, and I spread the word all around the world to inspire law school students who might be a right fit for our law school. When I connect with future lawyers, I get to help guide them into the legal profession. They in turn will help untold numbers of clients when they graduate. Directly or indirectly, I’m touching the lives of thousands, maybe even millions of people, and that’s a great feeling.
TOM GEFFERS
We give a career assessment before we work with our students, and many times law shows up strongly in their career path. What is pre-law? Do you need to have a certain major to get into law school?
MICHAEL CHEN
A lot of people think you need to go into "pre-law majors" or "pre-law tracks" because to go to a medical school, you must be pre-med. That's not the case with law schools. This is a common misconception. People think they need to major in history, political science, or criminology because that’s what the other pre-law students are doing. You can choose any major you want because there's no prerequisite major to go to law school. The minimum requirements to go to an accredited law school are, number one, to have a bachelor's degree in any major and number two, to have an LSAT score.
MARIA GEFFERS
Your major was English Literature, and you were able to make the transition to law school. Parents shouldn’t be worried that their child’s major will be a disadvantage in law school. You followed a different path until you went into the legal field.
MICHAEL CHEN
Many people ask me if lawyers need to major in English because lawyers write and read a lot. Law touches every area of our lives. No matter what your major, you can make an impact and you can relate to an area of law. People who majored in math or chemical engineering ask me if they can go to law school. I tell them they can. There's an area of law called intellectual property where you deal with patents, and you need to have a science background. STEM majors (science, technology, engineering, math) do extremely well in law school because the law is very logical. Otherwise, everything would be chaos. When you write legal arguments, it's like writing a science lab report. STEM majors do great. But any major can lead to success in law school.
TOM GEFFERS
Is it possible to go to law school part-time and get out in a reasonable amount of time?
MICHAEL CHEN
Not every law school offers part-time, but they aren’t rare. You need to seek them out. We offer one here at Western State. Part-time programs are great for people who have work or family obligations. You can graduate in four years versus three years, which is how long it would take if you went full-time.
TOM GEFFERS
Is there financial aid available for law school like scholarships and fellowships?
MICHAEL CHEN
This is a big question. People have an idea of how to pull off college financially, but how do we do it for law school? I try to make this simple to understand by breaking it down into two categories. There's free money, and then there's money you must pay back. Free money is obviously better.
It comes in the form of scholarships and grants, but it’s different from college. If you go to college there are Pell Grants, and in California we have something called Cal Grants. They are need-based grants from the government. These things don't exist in law school. Grant money doesn’t exist for law school, medical school, or a professional school.
The free money that exists in law school is in the form of scholarships. There are several types. There are need- based scholarships, but very few law schools offer those. Most law schools in North America offer merit scholarships. Those are awarded to people who have academic merit, meaning the law school is going to look at how well you did in college. What's your cumulative GPA? What's your trend in grades? Did you take intellectually stimulating courses? They look at your major, not to say your major may not be good enough, but they understand that something like engineering is more difficult than English literature. They'll also look at your LSAT score. The LSAT helps predict your potential for academic success.
They look at all those factors and then award scholarships based on academic merit. It can get close to full tuition for many schools. If you have a high GPA your first semester of law school, you could get a free ride. There are opportunities to pay for law school using free money. But if you don’t have all the free money you want or need, there is money you must pay back, which is in the form of loans. Just like with college, you fill out a FAFSA.
Many times, people think because they didn’t qualify for financial aid for undergrad, they won’t qualify for law school, which is not true. When you applied for the FAFSA as an undergrad, you were still considered financially dependent on your parents. When you apply to law school, you’re considered financially independent from your parents. You don't list your parents' information on your FAFSA. The loan programs for law school are not need- based, which is nice.
There are two loan programs. One is called Stafford Loan, where you get $20,500. The other is called the Graduate Plus Loan. It’s based on your credit. There are other scholarship opportunities from lawyers' associations. Most students are financing their education through those federal loan programs and merit scholarships.
TOM GEFFERS
Do most law schools help students with placement when they graduate?
MICHAEL CHEN
Every law school accredited by the American Bar Association (ABA), which is the highest accreditation you can get, is required to have a career planning office or career services. Here we call it career development. They help students with resume reviews and mock interviews, etc. They assist students with finding what we call externships, which are like internships and jobs.
MARIA GEFFERS
Is there an area of law that you think will be particularly popular in the next five to 10 years?
MICHAEL CHEN
There are hundreds of specialties, from tax law to environmental law, and even specialty areas that pop up like fashion law and space law. There are so many different environments. You can work for a corporation, a law firm, a nonprofit, or government agency. It can be bewildering for most people. I like to simplify things. So, there are only two areas of law. The first is called litigation. The second is called transactional practice. You either go to court and fight for your client or you’re doing transactional law, which is drafting contracts, wills, and immigration documents. Those are the two broad categories of law.
I’ve been in legal education for about 20 years now, and the popular areas have stayed the same. Criminal law is huge. Business law is huge. Those are the two top areas of law most students are interested in. People are also interested in family law, real estate law, and immigration law. At Western State, because those areas are popular, we offer specialty certificates. Those tend to be popular for students.
People should understand, law school is not like college. In college, you declare a major, and you specialize in that major. The same with medical school, where eventually you pick a specialty. That doesn’t happen in law school. You get a broad-based legal education. When you graduate and you get your Juris Doctor and your law license, you can practice in any form of law. I know attorneys who change radically 10 or 15 years into their career. They go from corporate law to real estate law, or move from litigation to mergers and acquisitions. With your law degree, if you find there's another area you're interested in, you can change your area of practice whenever you want.
We can't predict the future, but we can plan for it. I always advise students to think about what caused them to go to law school in the first place. What are they passionate about? I consider law to be an evergreen profession or career because when people ask about what the most in- demand area of law will be in the future, I can tell them the law touches every area of life.
People are always going to be arrested and go to jail., so there will be a need for criminal law attorneys. People always must pay taxes, so there will be a need for tax attorneys. People are always going to die, so there will always be a need for lawyers to draft wills. These are basic daily functions. There's always going to be a need for lawyers. Right now, as we move forward, baby boomers are going to be retiring and there will be a massive need for new lawyers to replace them, help the public, and engage intellectually with stimulating careers to serve the public.
TOM GEFFERS
If you go to law school and don’t take the bar, can you still be of use to a corporation?
MICHAEL CHEN
If you graduate from law school and don’t pass the bar exam, you cannot practice law. If you graduate with your JD degree and you choose not to practice law or want to work in a corporation, but not as an attorney, there are ways to do it. There is an entire area of careers where having a JD degree is required or gives you a significant advantage over people who don’t have it. We call these JD advantage careers. If you don't want to become a lawyer and you want to go into these careers instead, you can.
For example, you could work in compliance. That sounds fancy, but it just makes sure that corporations or organizations follow certain regulations. Lawyers are good at making people follow rules. There are many different kinds of compliance jobs. There’s medical healthcare compliance, where you work for a hospital to make sure they’re respecting patient privacy rights. There's insurance compliance. There's banking compliance. There are all kinds of regulatory compliance careers.
There are contracts management jobs. You might work for a corporation, or more likely for the government, and it will say in the job description, "JD degree required." For example, if you’re a contracts manager working for the Air Force, you help them buy everything from airplanes and weapons to paper clips and pens. You manage those contracts.
You could also be a mediator. They help people resolve family disputes outside of court. Becoming an FBI specialist has become popular among law students who don’t want to be lawyers. The FBI has a special career track for people who have a law degree to become a special agent. There are a lot of things people can do with a JD degree.
MARIA GEFFERS
You’ve shared a lot of valuable information. Is there anything else you would like to share?
MICHAEL CHEN
People should reach for their dreams. Sometimes I speak with people who say, "I want to become a lawyer, but it seems so daunting to me. There are all these steps. I have to take the LSAT exam and do all these other things." The journey of a thousand miles begins with one step. Sometimes people tell me they want to go to law school but don’t think they can get into my law school. Where there’s a will, there’s a way. I want people to feel encouraged to go to law school. That’s part of my job.
If people don't know what they want to do, I encourage them to just act. Put yourself out there and expose yourself to different opportunities. Get help when you need it. I went to my career planning office, and I encourage people to do the same. There is help out there, so reach for your dreams.
TOM GEFFERS
That’s a great way to end this interview.
