“Laches” - Plato
SOCRATES: Let me try to make my meaning NICIAS: True.
plainer then. I do not think that we have as yet decided what that is about which we are consult-SOCRATES: And in a word, when he considers ing, when we ask which of us is or is not skilled in anything for the sake of another thing, he thinks of the art, and has or has not had a teacher of the art.
the end and not of the means?
NICIAS: Why, Socrates, is not the question whether NICIAS: Certainly.
young men ought or ought not to learn the art of fighting in armour?
SOCRATES: And when you call in an adviser, you should see whether he too is skilful in the accom-SOCRATES: Yes, Nicias; but there is also a prior plishment of the end which you have in view?
question, which I may illustrate in this way: When a person considers about applying a medicine to NICIAS: Most true.
the eyes, would you say that he is consulting about the medicine or about the eyes?
SOCRATES: And at present we have in view some knowledge, of which the end is the soul of youth?
NICIAS: About the eyes.
NICIAS: Yes.
SOCRATES: And when he considers whether he shall set a bridle on a horse and at what time, he is SOCRATES: And we are enquiring, Which of us is thinking of the horse and not of the bridle?
skilful or successful in the treatment of the soul, 18
“Laches” - Plato
and which of us has had good teachers?
and experienced trainers of the minds of youth and also to have been really our teachers. Or if any of us LACHES: Well but, Socrates; did you never ob-says that he has no teacher, but that he has works serve that some persons, who have had no teach-of his own to show; then he should point out to ers, are more skilful than those who have, in some them what Athenians or strangers, bond or free, he things?
is generally acknowledged to have improved. But if he can show neither teachers nor works, then he SOCRATES: Yes, Laches, I have observed that; but should tell them to look out for others; and not run you would not be very willing to trust them if they the risk of spoiling the children of friends, and only professed to be masters of their art, unless they thereby incurring the most formidable accusation could show some proof of their skill or excellence which can be brought against any one by those near-in one or more works.
est to him. As for myself, Lysimachus and Melesias, I am the first to confess that I have never had a LACHES: That is true.
teacher of the art of virtue; although I have always from my earliest youth desired to have one. But I SOCRATES: And therefore, Laches and Nicias, as am too poor to give money to the Sophists, who Lysimachus and Melesias, in their anxiety to im-are the only professors of moral improvement; and prove the minds of their sons, have asked our ad-to this day I have never been able to discover the vice about them, we too should tell them who our art myself, though I should not be surprised if Nicias teachers were, if we say that we have had any, and or Laches may have discovered or learned it; for prove them to be in the first place men of merit they are far wealthier than I am, and may therefore 19
“Laches” - Plato
have learnt of others. And they are older too; so who were your respective teachers, and who were that they have had more time to make the discov-their brothers in the art; and then, if you are too ery. And I really believe that they are able to edu-much occupied in politics to teach us yourselves, cate a man; for unless they had been confident in let us go to them, and present them with gifts, or their own knowledge, they would never have spo-make interest with them, or both, in the hope that ken thus decidedly of the pursuits which are ad-they may be induced to take charge of our children vantageous or hurtful to a young man. I repose con-and of yours; and then they will not grow up infe-fidence in both of them; but I am surprised to find rior, and disgrace their ancestors. But if you are that they differ from one another. And therefore, yourselves original discoverers in that field, give us Lysimachus, as Laches suggested that you should some proof of your skill. Who are they who, having detain me, and not let me go until I answered, I in been inferior persons, have become under your care turn earnestly beseech and advise you to detain good and noble? For if this is your first attempt at Laches and Nicias, and question them. I would have education, there is a danger that you may be trying you say to them: Socrates avers that he has no the experiment, not on the ‘vile corpus’ of a Carian knowledge of the matter—he is unable to decide slave, but on your own sons, or the sons of your which of you speaks truly; neither discoverer nor friend, and, as the proverb says, ‘break the large student is he of anything of the kind. But you, vessel in learning to make pots.’ Tell us then, what Laches and Nicias, should each of you tell us who qualities you claim or do not claim. Make them tell is the most skilful educator whom you have ever you that, Lysimachus, and do not let them off.
known; and whether you invented the art yourselves, or learned of another; and if you learned, LYSIMACHUS: I very much approve of the words 20
“Laches” - Plato
of Socrates, my friends; but you, Nicias and Laches, may have met him among his fellow-wardsmen, in must determine whether you will be questioned, company with his father, at a sacrifice, or at some and give an explanation about matters of this sort.
other gathering. You clearly show that you have Assuredly, I and Melesias would be greatly pleased never known him since he arrived at manhood.
to hear you answer the questions which Socrates asks, if you will: for I began by saying that we took LYSIMACHUS: Why do you say that, Nicias?
you into our counsels because we thought that you would have attended to the subject, especially as NICIAS: Because you seem not to be aware that you have children who, like our own, are nearly of any one who has an intellectual affinity to Socrates an age to be educated. Well, then, if you have no and enters into conversation with him is liable to objection, suppose that you take Socrates into part-be drawn into an argument; and whatever subject nership; and do you and he ask and answer one he may start, he will be continually carried round another’s questions: for, as he has well said, we are and round by him, until at last he finds that he has deliberating about the most important of our con-to give an account both of his present and past life; cerns. I hope that you will see fit to comply with and when he is once entangled, Socrates will not our request.
let him go until he has completely and thoroughly sifted him. Now I am used to his ways; and I know NICIAS: I see very clearly, Lysimachus, that you that he will certainly do as I say, and also that I have only known Socrates’ father, and have no ac-myself shall be the sufferer; for I am fond of his quaintance with Socrates himself: at least, you can conversation, Lysimachus. And I think that there is only have known him when he was a child, and no harm in being reminded of any wrong thing 21
“Laches” - Plato
which we are, or have been, doing: he who does of them. And such an one I deem to be the true not fly from reproof will be sure to take more heed musician, attuned to a fairer harmony than that of of his after-life; as Solon says, he will wish and de-the lyre, or any pleasant instrument of music; for sire to be learning so long as he lives, and will not truly he has in his own life a harmony of words and think that old age of itself brings wisdom. To me, deeds arranged, not in the Ionian, or in the Phrygian to be cross-examined by Socrates is neither unusual mode, nor yet in the Lydian, but in the true Hel-nor unpleasant; indeed, I knew all along that where lenic mode, which is the Dorian, and no other. Such Socrates was, the argument would soon pass from an one makes me merry with the sound of his voice; our sons to ourselves; and therefore, I say that for and when I hear him I am thought to be a lover of my part, I am quite willing to discourse with discourse; so eager am I in drinking in his words.
Socrates in his own manner; but you had better ask But a man whose actions do not agree with his words our friend Laches what his feeling may be.
is an annoyance to me; and the better he speaks the more I hate him, and then I seem to be a hater LACHES: I have but one feeling, Nicias, or (shall I of discourse. As to Socrates, I have no knowledge say?) two feelings, about discussions. Some would of his words, but of old, as would seem, I have had think that I am a lover, and to others I may seem to experience of his deeds; and his deeds show that be a hater of discourse; for when I hear a man dis-free and noble sentiments are natural to him. And coursing of virtue, or of any sort of wisdom, who is if his words accord, then I am of one mind with a true man and worthy of his theme, I am delighted him, and shall be delighted to be interrogated by a beyond measure: and I compare the man and his man such as he is, and shall not be annoyed at hav-words, and note the harmony and correspondence ing to learn of him: for I too agree with Solon, 22
“Laches” - Plato
‘that I would fain grow old, learning many things.’
us. Please then to take my place, and find out from But I must be allowed to add ‘of the good only.’
Nicias and Laches what we want to know, for the Socrates must be willing to allow that he is a good sake of the youths, and talk and consult with them: teacher, or I shall be a dull and uncongenial pupil: for I am old, and my memory is bad; and I do not but that the teacher is younger, or not as yet in remember the questions which I am going to ask, repute—anything of that sort is of no account with or the answers to them; and if there is any inter-me. And therefore, Socrates, I give you notice that ruption I am quite lost. I will therefore beg of you you may teach and confute me as much as ever you to carry on the proposed discussion by your selves; like, and also learn of me anything which I know.
and I will listen, and Melesias and I will act upon So high is the opinion which I have entertained of your conclusions.
you ever since the day on which you were my companion in danger, and gave a proof of your valour SOCRATES: Let us, Nicias and Laches, comply such as only the man of merit can give. Therefore, with the request of Lysimachus and Melesias. There say whatever you like, and do not mind about the will be no harm in asking ourselves the question difference of our ages.
which was first proposed to us: ‘Who have been our own instructors in this sort of training, and SOCRATES: I cannot say that either of you show whom have we made better?’ But the other mode any reluctance to take counsel and advise with me.
of carrying on the enquiry will bring us equally to the same point, and will be more like proceeding LYSIMACHUS: But this is our proper business; from first principles. For if we knew that the addi-and yours as well as ours, for I reckon you as one of tion of something would improve some other thing, 23
“Laches” - Plato
and were able to make the addition, then, clearly, LACHES: Very true.
we must know how that about which we are advising may be best and most easily attained. Perhaps SOCRATES: Then must we not first know the na-you do not understand what I mean. Then let me ture of virtue? For how can we advise any one about make my meaning plainer in this way. Suppose we the best mode of attaining something of which we knew that the addition of sight makes better the are wholly ignorant?
eyes which possess this gift, and also were able to impart sight to the eyes, then, clearly, we should LACHES: I do not think that we can, Socrates.
know the nature of sight, and should be able to advise how this gift of sight may be best and most SOCRATES: Then, Laches, we may presume that easily attained; but if we knew neither what sight we know the nature of virtue?
is, nor what hearing is, we should not be very good medical advisers about the eyes or the ears, or about LACHES: Yes.
the best mode of giving sight and hearing to them.
SOCRATES: And that which we know we must LACHES: That is true, Socrates.
surely be able to tell?
SOCRATES: And are not our two friends, Laches, LACHES: Certainly.
at this very moment inviting us to consider in what way the gift of virtue may be imparted to their sons SOCRATES: I would not have us begin, my friend, for the improvement of their minds?
with enquiring about the whole of virtue; for that 24
“Laches” - Plato
may be more than we can accomplish; let us first LACHES: Indeed, Socrates, I see no difficulty in consider whether we have a sufficient knowledge of answering; he is a man of courage who does not run a part; the enquiry will thus probably be made easier away, but remains at his post and fights against the to us.
enemy; there can be no mistake about that.
LACHES: Let us do as you say, Socrates.
SOCRATES: Very good, Laches; and yet I fear that I did not express myself clearly; and therefore you SOCRATES: Then which of the parts of virtue shall have answered not the question which I intended we select? Must we not select that to which the art to ask, but another.
of fighting in armour is supposed to conduce? And is not that generally thought to be courage?
LACHES: What do you mean, Socrates?
LACHES: Yes, certainly.
SOCRATES: I will endeavour to explain; you would call a man courageous who remains at his post, and SOCRATES: Then, Laches, suppose that we first fights with the enemy?
set about determining the nature of courage, and in the second place proceed to enquire how the LACHES: Certainly I should.
young men may attain this quality by the help of studies and pursuits. Tell me, if you can, what is SOCRATES: And so should I; but what would you courage.
say of another man, who fights flying, instead of remaining?