Platos Gorgias
What right have you to despise the engine-maker, and the natural friend of the Athenian Demus, aye, or of Pyrilampes
others whom I was just now mentioning? I know that you darling who is called after them, must be by nature like will say, I am better, and better born. But if the better is them, and not an imitator only. He, then, who will make not what I say, and virtue consists only in a man saving him-you most like them, will make you as you desire, a states-self and his, whatever may be his character, then your cen-man and orator: for every man is pleased when he is spo-sure of the engine-maker, and of the physician, and of the ken to in his own language and spirit, and dislikes any other.
other arts of salvation, is ridiculous. O my friend! I want But perhaps you, sweet Callicles, may be of another mind.
you to see that the noble and the good may possibly be What do you say?
something different from saving and being saved:May not he who is truly a man cease to care about living a certain CALLICLES: Somehow or other your words, Socrates, time?he knows, as women say, that no man can escape always appear to me to be good words; and yet, like the rest fate, and therefore he is not fond of life; he leaves all that of the world, I am not quite convinced by them. (Compare with God, and considers in what way he can best spend his Symp.: 1 Alcib.)
appointed term;whether by assimilating himself to the constitution under which he lives, as you at this moment SOCRATES: The reason is, Callicles, that the love of have to consider how you may become as like as possible Demus which abides in your soul is an adversary to me; but to the Athenian people, if you mean to be in their good I dare say that if we recur to these same matters, and con-graces, and to have power in the state; whereas I want you sider them more thoroughly, you may be convinced for all to think and see whether this is for the interest of either of that. Please, then, to remember that there are two processes us;I would not have us risk that which is dearest on the of training all things, including body and soul; in the one, as acquisition of this power, like the Thessalian enchantresses, we said, we treat them with a view to pleasure, and in the who, as they say, bring down the moon from heaven at the other with a view to the highest good, and then we do not risk of their own perdition. But if you suppose that any indulge but resist them: was not that the distinction which man will show you the art of becoming great in the city, and we drew?
yet not conforming yourself to the ways of the city, whether for better or worse, then I can only say that you are mis-CALLICLES: Very true.
taken, Callides; for he who would deserve to be the true 137
Platos Gorgias
SOCRATES: And the one which had pleasure in view was of building, and who taught us?would not that be neces-just a vulgar flattery:was not that another of our conclu-sary, Callicles?
sions?
CALLICLES: True.
CALLICLES: Be it so, if you will have it.
SOCRATES: In the second place, we should have to con-SOCRATES: And the other had in view the greatest im-sider whether we had ever constructed any private house, provement of that which was ministered to, whether body either of our own or for our friends, and whether this build-or soul?
ing of ours was a success or not; and if upon consideration we found that we had had good and eminent masters, and CALLICLES: Quite true.
had been successful in constructing many fine buildings, not only with their assistance, but without them, by our own SOCRATES: And must we not have the same end in view unaided skillin that case prudence would not dissuade us in the treatment of our city and citizens? Must we not try from proceeding to the construction of public works. But if and make them as good as possible? For we have already we had no master to show, and only a number of worthless discovered that there is no use in imparting to them any buildings or none at all, then, surely, it would be ridiculous other good, unless the mind of those who are to have the in us to attempt public works, or to advise one another to good, whether money, or office, or any other sort of power, undertake them. Is not this true?
be gentle and good. Shall we say that?
CALLICLES: Certainly.
CALLICLES: Yes, certainly, if you like.
SOCRATES: And does not the same hold in all other cases?
SOCRATES: Well, then, if you and I, Callicles, were in-If you and I were physicians, and were advising one another tending to set about some public business, and were advis-that we were competent to practise as state-physicians, should ing one another to undertake buildings, such as walls, docks I not ask about you, and would you not ask about me, Well, or temples of the largest size, ought we not to examine our-but how about Socrates himself, has he good health? and was selves, first, as to whether we know or do not know the art any one else ever known to be cured by him, whether slave or 138
Platos Gorgias
freeman? And I should make the same enquiries about you.
CALLICLES: You are contentious, Socrates.
And if we arrived at the conclusion that no one, whether citizen or stranger, man or woman, had ever been any the better SOCRATES: Nay, I ask you, not from a love of conten-for the medical skill of either of us, then, by Heaven, Callicles, tion, but because I really want to know in what way you what an absurdity to think that we or any human being should think that affairs should be administered among us
be so silly as to set up as state-physicians and advise others like whether, when you come to the administration of them, ourselves to do the same, without having first practised in pri-you have any other aim but the improvement of the citi-vate, whether successfully or not, and acquired experience of zens? Have we not already admitted many times over that the art! Is not this, as they say, to begin with the big jar when such is the duty of a public man? Nay, we have surely said you are learning the potters art; which is a foolish thing?
so; for if you will not answer for yourself I must answer for you. But if this is what the good man ought to effect for the CALLICLES: True.
benefit of his own state, allow me to recall to you the names of those whom you were just now mentioning, Pericles, and SOCRATES: And now, my friend, as you are already be-Cimon, and Miltiades, and Themistocles, and ask whether ginning to be a public character, and are admonishing and you still think that they were good citizens.
reproaching me for not being one, suppose that we ask a few questions of one another. Tell me, then, Callicles, how CALLICLES: I do.
about making any of the citizens better? Was there ever a man who was once vicious, or unjust, or intemperate, or SOCRATES: But if they were good, then clearly each of foolish, and became by the help of Callicles good and noble?
them must have made the citizens better instead of worse?
Was there ever such a man, whether citizen or stranger, slave or freeman? Tell me, Callicles, if a person were to CALLICLES: Yes.
ask these questions of you, what would you answer? Whom would you say that you had improved by your conversa-SOCRATES: And, therefore, when Pericles first began to tion? There may have been good deeds of this sort which speak in the assembly, the Athenians were not so good as were done by you as a private person, before you came when he spoke last?
forward in public. Why will you not answer?