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CALLICLES: Yes, it appears so to me.
SOCRATES: If they were right in saying that they make men better, then they are the only class who can afford to SOCRATES: Do you never hear our professors of educa-leave their remuneration to those who have been benefited tion speaking in this inconsistent manner?
by them. Whereas if a man has been benefited in any other way, if, for example, he has been taught to run by a trainer, CALLICLES: Yes, but why talk of men who are good for he might possibly defraud him of his pay, if the trainer left nothing?
the matter to him, and made no agreement with him that he should receive money as soon as he had given him the SOCRATES: I would rather say, why talk of men who utmost speed; for not because of any deficiency of speed profess to be rulers, and declare that they are devoted to do men act unjustly, but by reason of injustice.
the improvement of the city, and nevertheless upon occasion declaim against the utter vileness of the city: do you CALLICLES: Very true.
think that there is any difference between one and the other?
My good friend, the sophist and the rhetorician, as I was SOCRATES: And he who removes injustice can be in no saying to Polus, are the same, or nearly the same; but you danger of being treated unjustly: he alone can safely leave ignorantly fancy that rhetoric is a perfect thing, and soph-the honorarium to his pupils, if he be really able to make istry a thing to be despised; whereas the truth is, that soph-them goodam I not right? (Compare Protag.) istry is as much superior to rhetoric as legislation is to the practice of law, or gymnastic to medicine. The orators and CALLICLES: Yes.
sophists, as I am inclined to think, are the only class who cannot complain of the mischief ensuing to themselves from SOCRATES: Then we have found the reason why there is that which they teach others, without in the same breath no dishonour in a man receiving pay who is called in to accusing themselves of having done no good to those whom advise about building or any other art?
they profess to benefit. Is not this a fact?
CALLICLES: Yes, we have found the reason.
CALLICLES: Certainly it is.
SOCRATES: But when the point is, how a man may be-144
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come best himself, and best govern his family and state, CALLICLES: The Mysian, Socrates, or what you please.
then to say that you will give no advice gratis is held to be For if you refuse, the consequences will be
dishonourable?
SOCRATES: Do not repeat the old storythat he who CALLICLES: True.
likes will kill me and get my money; for then I shall have to repeat the old answer, that he will be a bad man and will SOCRATES: And why? Because only such benefits call kill the good, and that the money will be of no use to him, forth a desire to requite them, and there is evidence that a but that he will wrongly use that which he wrongly took, benefit has been conferred when the benefactor receives a and if wrongly, basely, and if basely, hurtfully.
return; otherwise not. Is this true?
CALLICLES: How confident you are, Socrates, that you CALLICLES: It is.
will never come to harm! you seem to think that you are living in another country, and can never be brought into a SOCRATES: Then to which service of the State do you court of justice, as you very likely may be brought by some invite me? determine for me. Am I to be the physician of miserable and mean person.
the State who will strive and struggle to make the Athenians as good as possible; or am I to be the servant and flatterer SOCRATES: Then I must indeed be a fool, Callicles, if I of the State? Speak out, my good friend, freely and fairly do not know that in the Athenian State any man may suffer as you did at first and ought to do again, and tell me your anything. And if I am brought to trial and incur the dan-entire mind.
gers of which you speak, he will be a villain who brings me to trialof that I am very sure, for no good man would CALLICLES: I say then that you should be the servant of accuse the innocent. Nor shall I be surprised if I am put to the State.
death. Shall I tell you why I anticipate this?
SOCRATES: The flatterer? well, sir, that is a noble invi-CALLICLES: By all means.
tation.
SOCRATES: I think that I am the only or almost the only 145
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Athenian living who practises the true art of politics; I am CALLICLES: He certainly would.
the only politician of my time. Now, seeing that when I speak my words are not uttered with any view of gaining SOCRATES: And I too shall be treated in the same way, favour, and that I look to what is best and not to what is as I well know, if I am brought before the court. For I shall most pleasant, having no mind to use those arts and graces not be able to rehearse to the people the pleasures which I which you recommend, I shall have nothing to say in the have procured for them, and which, although I am not dis-justice court. And you might argue with me, as I was argu-posed to envy either the procurers or enjoyers of them, are ing with Polus:I shall be tried just as a physician would be deemed by them to be benefits and advantages. And if any tried in a court of little boys at the indictment of the cook.
one says that I corrupt young men, and perplex their minds, What would he reply under such circumstances, if some or that I speak evil of old men, and use bitter words to-one were to accuse him, saying, O my boys, many evil things wards them, whether in private or public, it is useless for has this man done to you: he is the death of you, especially me to reply, as I truly might:All this I do for the sake of of the younger ones among you, cutting and burning and justice, and with a view to your interest, my judges, and to starving and suffocating you, until you know not what to nothing else. And therefore there is no saying what may do; he gives you the bitterest potions, and compels you to happen to me.
hunger and thirst. How unlike the variety of meats and sweets on which I feasted you! What do you suppose that CALLICLES: And do you think, Socrates, that a man who the physician would be able to reply when he found him-is thus defenceless is in a good position?
self in such a predicament? If he told the truth he could only say, All these evil things, my boys, I did for your health,
SOCRATES: Yes, Callicles, if he have that defence, which and then would there not just be a clamour among a jury as you have often acknowledged he should haveif he be like that? How they would cry out!
his own defence, and have never said or done anything wrong, either in respect of gods or men; and this has been CALLICLES: I dare say.
repeatedly acknowledged by us to be the best sort of defence. And if any one could convict me of inability to de-SOCRATES: Would he not be utterly at a loss for a reply?
fend myself or others after this sort, I should blush for shame, whether I was convicted before many, or before a 146
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few, or by myself alone; and if I died from want of ability to Zeus, the judgment was given on the very day on which the do so, that would indeed grieve me. But if I died because I men were to die; the judges were alive, and the men were have no powers of flattery or rhetoric, I am very sure that alive; and the consequence was that the judgments were you would not find me repining at death. For no man who not well given. Then Pluto and the authorities from the is not an utter fool and coward is afraid of death itself, but Islands of the Blessed came to Zeus, and said that the souls he is afraid of doing wrong. For to go to the world below found their way to the wrong places. Zeus said: I shall put having ones soul full of injustice is the last and worst of all a stop to this; the judgments are not well given, because the evils. And in proof of what I say, if you have no objection, I persons who are judged have their clothes on, for they are should like to tell you a story.
alive; and there are many who, having evil souls, are appar-elled in fair bodies, or encased in wealth or rank, and, when CALLICLES: Very well, proceed; and then we shall have the day of judgment arrives, numerous witnesses come for-done.
ward and testify on their behalf that they have lived righteously. The judges are awed by them, and they themselves SOCRATES: Listen, then, as story-tellers say, to a very too have their clothes on when judging; their eyes and ears pretty tale, which I dare say that you may be disposed to and their whole bodies are interposed as a veil before their regard as a fable only, but which, as I believe, is a true tale, own souls. All this is a hindrance to them; there are the for I mean to speak the truth. Homer tells us (Il.), how clothes of the judges and the clothes of the judged.What Zeus and Poseidon and Pluto divided the empire which is to be done? I will tell you:In the first place, I will de-they inherited from their father. Now in the days of Cronos prive men of the foreknowledge of death, which they pos-there existed a law respecting the destiny of man, which has sess at present: this power which they have Prometheus has always been, and still continues to be in Heaven,that he already received my orders to take from them: in the sec-who has lived all his life in justice and holiness shall go, ond place, they shall be entirely stripped before they are when he is dead, to the Islands of the Blessed, and dwell judged, for they shall be judged when they are dead; and there in perfect happiness out of the reach of evil; but that the judge too shall be naked, that is to say, deadhe with he who has lived unjustly and impiously shall go to the house his naked soul shall pierce into the other naked souls; and of vengeance and punishment, which is called Tartarus. And they shall die suddenly and be deprived of all their kin-in the time of Cronos, and even quite lately in the reign of dred, and leave their brave attire strewn upon the earth