SUZANNE VESTER

People need to be more vulnerable and have open conversations about keeping their sexual energy and sex life vibrant and whole. They need to know how to do that in ways that are glorifying and edifying. What’s considered out of bounds by many might be something beautiful God created to be shared between a husband and wife. How do you two address this? What have you talked about in the past?

BENÉ MARSH

We want people to believe they can have an amazing marriage and can love their marriage. God created our bodies, and he created us to have pleasure, but we're afraid of having pleasure or we think God isn’t with us or watching when we receive pleasure. He’s in the middle of it the whole time. He created it and wants us to enjoy life. He loves women so much he gave us 12 different pleasure points. When we have a marriage conference many of the women attendees email me and ask what the 12 pleasure points are. God is so creative. We wanted to have a platform to discuss what’s okay and what isn’t. We have people who really love God and want to serve Him and have a pure heart. Before we were married, we were messed up, lost, and broken. We entered relationships that were all about sex with no boundaries.

When we were saved, we felt so pure and holy we were weird about sex for a while. We didn’t know what was okay and what wasn’t. We weren’t sure if things that used to be dirty in our past were now clean. We spoke with many couples who were pure before they were married, and once they got married they wondered if they could be wild, kinky, and have fun together. They didn’t know how to transition between the two.

IV MARSH

One of the major problems now is most people’s sexual education comes from porn. That’s unhealthy. The church world should be able to undergird the beauty of sexuality, but instead, it pushes it away. When someone uses words like eroticism, erotic sex, and kink, because of our programming, we assume those words are negative and sinful. The truth is they're not. They are words that are designed to mean specific kinds of pleasure. If we read Psalm of Solomon today, written in 21st Century language, we would be reading eroticism. It’s very racy and many pastors stay away from it.

BENÉ MARSH

Often pastors are afraid to approach different topics because it’s easier to be legalistic and tell people not to partake in certain activities. It’s difficult for them to explain certain topics. God put us in the position to teach couples about sexual intimacy. We would rather people come to us to hear what the word of God says about sex than go anywhere else. When many people start their sexual journey, their baseline is pornography. It’s harmful, damaging, and eroding the soul. There is an unhealthy balance, and we must speak more about the healthy biblical balance of how God created sex, why He created it, and what it’s for.

SUZANNE VESTER

If someone's coming in and porn is their baseline, how do you begin to address that? Where do you feel the best place to start the conversation is when clearing the air and starting people on a journey to see sex in a different light?

IV MARSH

We’re candid about all things sex. Couples in their twenties and early thirties have mostly been educated by porn. Many men are addicted to porn. When they come to us, their relationship is already dysfunctional from the expectation porn puts on them. They assume they must perform a certain way and look a certain way. They think women make a certain face when having an orgasm. These are mental pictures they’re grading themselves on without taking the time to understand how the porn industry works. They don’t understand how the films are made and what goes into making them. We take the time to break it down and explain that porn is about as real as The Matrix.

There are so many camera tricks and so many behind-the- scenes things that are happening that people don't see. Any person in the porn industry will tell you it’s solely for entertainment. They realize it's fake. We point out what is fake. 90% of male ejaculation in porn is fake. It’s not real. It’s produced with different liquids. There are ways to fake it. It’s not hard to imagine. If you watch an action film and somebody gets shot and bleeds out, that’s fake. People think it looks real, but it’s not. They’re doing the same thing in porn with both male and female ejaculation. So, we break that all down for them and try to take away their visual expectations.

BENÉ MARSH

There is so much available to us. Many enemies come for marriage and the confidence and knowledge of knowing it’s okay to be vulnerable with each other. If someone doesn’t know what to do or how to pleasure their partner, that doesn’t have to be a barrier. That can open doors so they can learn to explore each other’s bodies and have amazing sex.

In one of our classes, we discuss what’s okay and what’s not okay biblically speaking. We talk about what we feel is available to us through the Word and what’s not available to us. We became passionate about this because we see marriages fall apart all the time. When I would hold women’s conferences, I would ask the women how many of them don’t desire sex because of a hormonal imbalance. 95% of the room would raise their hand. You can’t tell me the Lord gave us a gift this beautiful to have hormones mess it up. We have different expectations and desires that aren’t being met. We’re not being wooed. We don’t feel safe to be vulnerable in these situations. Their husbands aren’t coming after them and they don’t feel desired or wanted. It’s like a task. Throughout the day they’re not receiving touches or words of encouragement. My hormones would feel off too if sex was a task to check off a list. A lot of women are bored and don’t feel pursued.

IV MARSH

We often talk about how women don’t want to have sex because there is not return on investment.

CHRIS VESTER

What are the four enemies of sexual intimacy?

IV MARSH

One of them is ignorance. They don't know what to do. Many women and men don’t know what they want. Another enemy is fear. They might have a sexual trauma from an early childhood experience or a dating incident that attaches fear to sexual intimacy and affects their trust.

BENÉ MARSH

Another enemy is being a selfish lover. The last enemy is embarrassment. People don’t know what’s okay or what they’re supposed to do. Women might be afraid their partner will think they’re stupid. Sometimes people want to pretend like they have all the answers, but they are too intimidated to be vulnerable.

IV MARSH

Porn adds to body dysmorphia in many ways. People become embarrassed by their own bodies. When we coach a couple, one of their homework assignments is to stand nude in front of each other with the lights on. Then they are supposed to tell each other what they like about their own bodies and then swap and tell each other what they like about the other’s body. Everyone has a body part they are insecure about. It’s natural. That’s the beauty of aging and maturing together, you learn to celebrate and appreciate each other’s bodies. Don’t be embarrassed by your body. Many couples tell us they can’t imagine doing that exercise.

BENÉ MARSH

Much less with the lights on. Many people jump into bed with a t-shirt on and they don’t want their partner to touch their stomach or their back. They lay on their side so they can feel as small as possible. I encourage women to be more comfortable with their bodies. If they can go to the gynecologist and lay there with the lights on to be examined by a doctor, they should be able to be sexually intimate with their husband. Women should sit with themselves and a mirror to get comfortable with their bodies. They should look at how God created their body because there is nothing to be embarrassed about. Shame is not from the Lord. If you're feeling shameful, that doesn't come from God. The enemy comes to steal, kill, and destroy, and the enemy is trying to steal, kill, and destroy your sexual intimacy.

After examining your body with a mirror, allow your husband to sit in front of you and look at your body. Talk about the different parts and be okay with exploration. It’s all about being able to be comfortable and intimate with your partner. You can’t be intimate if you don’t allow your partner to see you. Your partner needs to be able to see you emotionally, spiritually, and physically to create the most pleasure within our bodies. The Bible says we’re one flesh. Intimacy is part of the process of becoming one.

SUZANNE VESTER

Many women who come to my office don’t know the anatomically correct way to describe their bodies. Peeling back the layers is important because people can’t do the hard work necessary until they are comfortable with and unashamed of their bodies.

BENÉ MARSH

Many people feel like they have a little anxiety when sitting naked examining each other, and the anxiety is a sign that what they’re doing is bad. It’s the Holy Spirit excited within them. Don’t claim that feeling as anxiety. He’s excited because he created your body and you’re enjoying your body. Once you can look at each other naked and find no shame, a barrier has been broken and you can have more fun. It's not about performance. It's not about who's better. It's about becoming one, being intimate with each other, and enjoying it.

CHRIS VESTER

Of the four enemies, which one do you see people having the most trouble with and how do you help them overcome that?

IV MARSH

For men it’s usually ignorance. Most men are great at learning things they're already good at. They don't take the time to learn about their spouse's anatomy in a way that allows them to have confidence. The more competent you are, the more confidence you’re going to have. Many men don’t feel confident because they don’t know their partner’s body like they should. Male genitalia are simple. It only has a few parts. Female genitalia are intricately made and have many parts to it. Each part plays a role in her pleasure and most men are taught by friends or porn that there is one place to focus on. They don't understand the extent of how far the clitoris goes, what the hood does, the inner and outer labia, the vagina, or the vulva. When I talk to men about this, they tell me they feel like they’re doing algebra. I explain to them it’s about the beauty of exploration. It’s the vulnerability that comes with humility that creates intimacy, which makes your pleasure go up.

BENÉ MARSH

For women the biggest enemy is selfishness. Many of them feel exhausted because their partner isn’t pleasing them emotionally. They don’t have anything left to give. They feel like they aren’t being helped or served enough, so they don’t have sex because they don’t have the time and energy. They’re raising kids, buying groceries, and working. I talk to women all the time who have pure hearts for God and who tithe. They love to serve in His house and want to teach Bible studies. I point out to these women that in First Corinthians 7:3 through 5, God is not asking our opinion. He's not saying women can withhold their body from their husband if they feel like it. God says not to withhold your body.

He doesn’t say that so women will be doormats. He says it because He created us, knows what’s best for us, and He knows serving each other and ourselves is the greatest intimacy and oneness experienced. Even if people decide not to come together for a certain period for prayer, God tells them to come back together when they are done. There is a layer of protection that being intimate with each other provides. When you’re intimate with each other, you’re not lonely. I feel sorry for couples who withhold themselves from each other. There is nothing worse than feeling lonely in a marriage.

When you're withholding yourself from each other, or you're using sex as a tool of manipulation, there will never be peace there. I try to encourage people to realize their body is not their own. They didn’t go into a contract with their husband, they went into a covenant with their husband and God. I explain to women they aren’t bowing down to their husband. They aren’t doormats to be abused, they’re helpmate fits for their husband. As the helpmate, God has created some unique things that are just for her husband. That’s their secret place. It’s a place where couples can go and nobody else can follow.

Being unselfish and being a servant doesn’t mean they can’t say no, but wives should be looking for opportunities, not excuses. I want to be intimate with my husband because I love the pleasure that it brings. If I’m stressed, there is no greater gift in the world. I don’t have to take three or four different pills. God created my body and your body to release all the different hormones to relieve stress. I want to move in God’s direction in all things, not just some things.

SUZANNE VESTER

There are some things couples don’t understand. Maybe they don’t know what’s okay or what is out of bounds when it comes to sexual intimacy. Maybe culture says something is dirty or wrong. What are the top two or three taboo things that people ask if it’s okay to do?

IV MARSH

We always give people we're coaching three questions to ask to determine if something's okay. The first question you must ask is, is this legal in scripture and in your state? The Bible says, “Submit yourself to the laws of the land.” The second question they should ask is, is it helpful? Does it help fulfill one of the six reasons for sex? The third question is, is it addicted or harmful? If you engage in this sexual behavior, does it have the danger to replace coming together as one flesh because you would rather engage in that sexual behavior?

We are asked about anal sex a lot. Most people say that Sodom and Gomorrah says it’s wrong. When they say that, I ask them to tell me where it says that anal sex is a sin or if it’s an assumption through religious tradition they made because the Puritan movement assumed it was dirty. The sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was not improper sexual activity by itself. There was a lot more going on. Tradition took that word and made a word for anal sex called sodomy and people took that to mean anal sex is wrong.

They’re manipulating a biblical story to support their fear and tradition. Instead, they should be asking if anal sex is helpful. There are pleasure points for both men and women through that approach. They should ask themselves if it’s addictive. It’s probably not something you’ll want to do all the time, but it is something you can explore in the sacredness of the marriage bed. It’s not a taboo subject. It’s not a sin. It’s something that can be enjoyed.

BENÉ MARSH

I have had women come to my office who think their husband has homosexual tendencies, but the husband just wants to explore different kinds of sex, like anal sex, and it scares the women to death. I tell them to speak with their husbands and ask why they want to do it. Is it because they’ve never tried it before? I laugh and tell many of them to go for it. Either the husband will be too scared, or it could become common and normal to them. As brothers and sisters, we don’t want to demonize something somebody else finds pleasure in. Just because you don’t find pleasure in it, doesn’t make it a sin. That’s why we have conversations about it at our marriage conferences and when we’re coaching. We want people to be able to ask those questions. They need to be able to have a conversation about it without feeling like they’re dishonoring the Lord.

We are asked about the use of toys a lot too. We recommend safe places they can go and different toys they can play with. Women do have to be careful with toys though, because I’ve spoken to many women who prefer their toy because they know how to hit the correct spot. That’s not intimacy. That’s where toys can become enslaving. If they like their toy more than their husband, they have a problem there. If it’s something that will enhance their sexual intimacy, there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s important to use the toys in appropriate places and buy them from appropriate stores. Do not get a replica of someone famous. Toys can enhance the different pleasure points God gave us.

IV MARSH

Many of our clients ask us about excited language and roleplay. Again, we tell them to ask themselves the three questions. Does the Bible say you can’t? Is it helpful? Is it addictive? We caution people not to fall into a false identity when they are role playing. A lot of people can do that, but some can’t. Some people are so uncomfortable in their own skin they create an avatar in their mind and become someone else. That’s dangerous and something they need to talk about.

The use of excited language during sexual connectivity within married couples is fine to use. There are many things one culture considers profanity that another culture does not. For example, if you’re in the Bible Belt South, words like hell, shit, and damn are considered curse words. In Ireland, that’s everyday language, and priests in Ireland use them from their sermon planforms because they are just words. We tell our clients that if the excited language in the marriage bed is not condemning, belittling, or shaming it’s okay.

BENÉ MARSH

We tell them not to have angry sex. They can pretend to be mad and say what they want to say, but it’s all role playing.

IV MARSH

If you're not going into a condemning, belittling, or shaming place, and you're just using words to communicate excitement and pleasure, then that's okay. We want to help them see they can't let it get to anger. Our top three questions were different 10 years ago, but that’s where we are now.

CHRIS VESTER

What do you think caused the change in the last 10 years?

IV MARSH

The easy access to porn. We’re dealing with the first generation who grew up one click away from porn access at a very early developmental age. Some people were watching porn as early as six years old, and now we're seeing those people in their late twenties and early thirties. For us, we had to go hunt down a Playboy or Hustler just for a still photo. Now, six-year-olds can watch the physical act of sex that is completely fake.

The most viewed porn right now by people between the ages of 10 and 16 is rape or violence-style porn. Many of them think passionate sex involves choking their partner until she almost passes out. We don’t understand yet what it’s doing to the mind, which is changing the trajectory of every question we get. As sex coaches, both Bené and I must address some form of violence or degradation inside of sexual contact, even in marriage.

BENÉ MARSH

We’re seeing erectile dysfunction at higher rates than ever before. Many of our clients in their 20s, whether they saved themselves for marriage or not, have low testosterone levels. Their testosterone is at 150 or 70, and it breaks our heart because so many people have waited their whole life to experience this gift within marriage, and it doesn’t work. They feel such shame. A neuro pathway is birthed in that moment and the fear that his penis won’t work arises. Nobody talks about it, especially in their 20s. They don’t know what to say.

IV is open and honest about his personal struggles and the medication he takes. We hold conferences about it so men can be comfortable with the idea that it’s okay to need medication. We live in a fallen world. There are hormones in everything we eat. Our bodies are far away from the fall. We take medication for other things, and you may need medication for this. We coach many young couples who are already on medication because the man is not consistent and dependable due to his low testosterone levels.

BENÉ MARSH

We must continue to have conversations about porn. There are therapists, even Christian therapists, who recommend couples watch porn. They say it can enhance the couple’s sexual experience together as a biblical couple. I would argue it doesn’t. Porn is dangerous because it takes a lot of endorphins to have an orgasm. If they are watching two women, two men, or something else, they need to reach the same level of endorphins to have an orgasm in real life. It's not only the testosterone. It's the damage that's been done to the body by watching porn. You might be excited to see your wife, but your body doesn’t respond the same way because it takes more for you to get excited.

SUZANNE VESTER

What is your superpower as a couple?

IV MARSH

Our superpower is our chemistry, our unity, and the fun we have together intentionally. We're very intentional in what we do. Everything we do has a purpose. We have worked hard over 29 years to maintain and grow our chemistry and unity with each other. We’re not going to do something that isn’t fun. It doesn’t matter what environment we walk into; we’re going to have fun, and chemistry will take place.

BENÉ MARSH

We love to dance together. We live an hour and a half outside of Nashville, Tennessee, so we sneak away a lot. We like to go to the different places. People still ask us if we’re newlyweds. People don’t believe it’s possible for people who have been married as long as we have to have fun. That's the mission God gave us. He wants us to show people what's possible and that they can have a great marriage years into it. They don’t have to fake it. IV and I have worked together for 20 years, and when I see him in the driveway, I still get giddy. If you ask any of my kids what I do when I see their dad in the driveway, they will say I spray myself with the perfume I was married in, put on lip gloss, and throw on cute clothes. I want him to be excited when he when he walks in the door. When he walks in the door, I want him to think, "That's my girl." I miss him when he’s gone. It's not fake. If he’s flying out of town I say, "Oh, my gosh. I'm going to miss you so much," and our daughter Elle will say, "Mom, you're only going to be away from each other two nights." I don’t like being away from him. Maybe we’re a little unhealthy and codependent, but we like it.

·  Easy access to porn is showing its effects in young people

·  Sex isn’t wrong - God created our bodies and wants us to have pleasure

·  There are four enemies to sexual intimacy