?

Ron’s response:

 

You Are Right.

 

I am Wrong.

 

(Or I am right and you are wrong.)

In a debate, like all contests humans enter into, you have a winner and a loser. Each side exists in relationship to the other.
But often people get angry in defending their positions.

Most have come to believe they are their personality, their ego, their opinions and preferences and because of that illusion they think being “right” or “wining” is important. But what is “right” without “wrong?”

Within the realm of conceptual time everything is experienced as the play of opposites.

Right / Wrong Hot / Cold
+ / -
Love / Hate Self / Other Sin / Virtue Up / Down
On / Off
Black / White Life / Death

Every thing-event, which includes me, is known only in relationship to everything else. All polar opposites are really two sides of the same coin.
Every inside has to have an outside, and every outside has to have an inside. You can’t have IS without IS-NOT.

And that is why I am united in a oneness that includes all of existence. And that is why “death,” being the other side of “life,” holds no fear for me.

 

Which fish is “right” and which is “wrong?” Which is the “winner” and which the “loser?” Steve’s Reply:

You have yet to responded to my question to you about LOVE: whether it is a REALITY, or only a concept to you. First you offer pictures depicting examples of the expressions of LOVE, seemingly pointing to love's REALITY; and when I ask you, "What are you saying?," because it would appear from the pictures that you see that LOVE is a REALITY, and not a mere concept, but instead of responding, you seem to give up by saying, “You Are Right. I Am Wrong.” But then quickly add, “(Or maybe I am right and you are wrong),” ignoring the question entirely, except to suggest that love and hate are opposites, and need each other some how, to have meaning, defining each other, rather then each defining itself.

The only way that I can “win” this debate, is if I can persuade you. As long as you remain un-persuaded, I have not “won.” And obviously, you have yet to persuade me, so there are no winners yet. Coming to agreement would make us both “winners,” being on the same side. As it stands, there are no “winners” yet, only two people who are not in agreement on a fundamental question. If you can persuade me, then I will agree with you, and turn from my error. Or if I can persuade you, perhaps you would turn from your error. Either way, the result would be two winners and no losers. The only loser in this debate, would be one who holds to their position, in the light of persuasion to the contrary; you know, someone willing to remain ignorant, after seeing the light.

My question to you about LOVE remains. Is LOVE a REALITY, or is it only a concept to you? Since you have now brought in “polar opposites,” the belief that LOVE and HATE are two sides of the same coin, I will deal with it; though I am still waiting to hear if LOVE is even REAL, in your world. The polar opposites argument is a flawed position, in that it implies that LOVE needs hate, to give it meaning; and that LOVE and hate are some how opposite, but equal, and always having to coexist; because LOVE can not exist without hate, which defines it.

On the contrary, LOVE has always existed. LOVE existed long before hate, and will exist long after hate has been forgotten.

The proof that hate is temporary is obvious.
Inherent to its own nature, hate is self destructive, and therefore can not possibly last forever. Hate destroys the things around it, and in the process, destroys itself; therefore hate is inherently unstable, and temporary, doomed to destroy itself in the end. As Jesus explains, “A house divided against itself, cannot stand.”

As for your question about the two fish: you asked, “Which one is the winner; and which one is the loser?” I would say; That depends on which one is the Lion fish; And which one is not the Lion fish. The Lion fish is the winner, and the other poor fish doesn't have a prayer.

Ron’s Reply:

For me, love is only a reality if I experience it as an emotion.
If I turn it into a thought it becomes a concept and is limited.
As a concept I can debate about its ability to be self defining or exist without corollaries,

like hate, indifference, apathy, or an attitude of not caring.

 

But it’s only as a wordless emotion that “love” truly comes into existence, as in this image:

 

There is no question about the destructiveness of hate. I see it all around me in the countless acts of war and cruelty humans continue to inflict upon each other.
But hate cannot destroy itself because it does not exist by itself.
It originates and survives only within mankind’s false identity, the ego.
And regardless of whether it exists as an individual ego, or as the collective egos of countries, cultures, and world religions, it seeks to persuade others through logic and by force. But egos are always unhappy, unsatisfied, unfulfilled, and suffer from constant desires. So how did this ignorance which separates humanity from the bliss of divine spirit come about?

My take on it is that the intelligence which is the source and energy of all things enters into form and becomes consciousness much like beams of light penetrate and illuminate darkness.

But at some point in the evolution of human consciousness self awareness developed as a survival mechanism and egos were born out of that ability to observe one’s self.
But ego structures, once formed, want to continue to survive long after their usefulness ends.
They do this through identification with form and end up equating “being” with “having.”
They perpetuate themselves through comparisons and conflicts with other egos; and never experience reality directly, but exist only within the abstracted world of words. They become prisoners of psychological time, believing in the concepts of “past” and “future” and never experience the eternity awaiting all beings within the ever present now moment.
The ego’s sense of separation isolates humans from the joy and happiness to be found in all of nature.

But I have found the bliss which comes with the freedom from ego’s false face. And it’s as easy and simple as just quieting the mind of its constant chattering of thoughts. In that stillness I become aware of the timeless nature of my self and of my surroundings;

and I can enter into the creative processes going on all around me and feel fully at home. Steve’s Reply:

This is good.
We do agree that the REALITY of LOVE is not found in any concept; and that there is
LOVE. It is experienced as an emotion by you at times; and at those times, LOVE is REAL for
you.

I would suggest that LOVE is no less REAL after you have stopped feeling it; nor was it any less real before you experienced it.

Feeling the reality of LOVE through our emotions is when we best understand LOVE; but we can also see it, as in the picture you offered. We have the capacity to empathize with others, feeling the love they feel.

I see LOVE in a beautiful sunset, and in a butterfly; and whenever I take the time to consider most any natural thing; When I look beyond what I already "know," and behold the wonder of what is, LOVE is what I see. Beauty seems to be an inherent quality in nature which resonates in me as LOVE.

And when I look at the breathtaking pictures of our Magnificent Universe, I see LOVE as far as the eye can see, and as far back in time as man can presently peer. I find it impossible to imagine a time when LOVE did not exist. It seems obvious to me, that all the beauty that fills this Universe, is a direct result and testimony to that LOVE, out of which it all comes, and for whom it is all intended.

I agree with you that man's ego, is the problem; but I see that the problem is way beyond man's ability to solve.

Man's attempt to solve the ego problem results in all the religions of the world, as well as all the wars. But no religion can solve the ego problem, because all religions come from the ego. The solution has to come from outside our own ego, since any solution that originates from the ego, will just be more ego, disguised as something else.

The solution, is when LOVE comes, in the form of a man, and puts to death Man’s ego, once and for all, for all who believe.

 

I agree with you that hate cannot actually destroy itself; it can only destroy those who surrender to it.

And I agree that hate needs egos, through which it can express itself. But unlike more considerate parasites, hate is quite willing to destroy its own host. It is in this way that it eventually destroys itself. Though presently there seems to be no shortage of egos, thirsty for hate, and unwilling to forgive. So one could expect hate to have a “good time,” for a while.

But LOVE is the solution to hate. And LOVE endures forever; whereas hate lasts only for a season; and I believe that, that season is coming to a close. It is a season of ignorance, for which the only cure is LIGHT; and a season of hate, for which the only cure is LOVE.

Exactly how and when self awareness emerged is of course, highly speculative. The Bible gives the account as Man's first act of disobedience, after being placed in the garden prepared for him, and given instructions to care for it. The only forbidden fruit in the garden, was the fruit of the tree of “the knowledge of good and evil,” and it was placed in the middle of the garden; clearly a set up, designed for man to prove he has free will.

Self will is discovered along with self awareness, and the guilt that comes from disobedience; all of which leads to shame, and the wanting to hide. It was here that man first discovered himself, and then covered himself, out of shame. And it was also here that the Solution to the problem was first promised.

Ron’s Reply:

That was well written and well thought out. I fear that in giving it a proper response I will become very wordy and the pictures will suffer.

Yes, I agree that the inherent beauty found in Nature resonates with Love, especially when looked at without “knowing,” and simply beheld, as “wonder.” And I know we both have that ability.

But most beings in this society, which is so dominated by the ego, are not able to experience Reality directly, and so miss out on all the Love that’s around them. That’s because they cannot escape the trap of their own minds. I feel this is why there is so much unhappiness everywhere you look. People feel unfulfilled and have no connection with Reality. If they could experience life’s fullness without thinking all the time, they would realize that their individual existence is like the waves and foam on the surface of the sea. While their true identity is the power and depth of the whole Ocean.
“As waves come with water and flames with fire so the universal waves with us.”

But to experience this they would have to go below the surface of their memories and habits of thought which define their egos. They would have to venture far beyond the limitations of the individual self to find the oneness of their Higher Self. Here they would find themselves One with everything in existence. Here they would find lasting happiness and true peace of mind.

But before I comment on your other points I want to explain where I am, and how I got here.

We both grew up without a father or even a grandfather for that matter. Since our mother worked long swing shifts as a waitress, there were many days in which we never saw her at all. But what we lost in not having a father figure, or a full time mom, we gained in a freedom few children ever experience. We could go anywhere and return at any time. We could explore the world and try to quench our unquenchable curiosities. We could spend summer days just fishing and summer nights sleeping out under the stars and wondering: “does it go on forever and forever?”

One of the earliest things I learned as a child was the Western concept of god as both creator and ruler of the universe. But I was put off by the notion that he was always looking over my shoulder and judging my actions and thoughts. There was an alternate view called science which had the concept that I was just an accident, and had only a brief existence. Somewhere around this time I made the conscious decision that I didn’t really care who was right, I just wanted to be happy. So I looked around for the happiest beings I could find, past or present, and it soon became apparent that the ones they called mystics were by far the most ecstatic beings on the planet. You could hear it in their words. You could see it in their faces.

And while mystics were rare in the religions of the West, they sprouted like weeds in the traditions of the East. And so that’s where I went searching for the secret of happiness. And I found it. It was the Tao, about which is said:
“A man who understands the Tao in the morning,

May die, without regret, in the evening.” Confucius

The Taoist were funny people who lived in ancient China. They had two basic qualities. They did not trust “words” to describe Nature because words break things up, and Nature operates as a whole. And they felt you should not interfere with Nature, but rather always go with the flow. They felt that by taking the path of least resistance, and tacking into the wind, so to speak, you could still get what you wanted, but without any force.

I will try to summarize what I feel the mystics are saying about the human condition and the way back to happiness. Although they are the first to admit that this is something that can never be put into words.

They start by saying, true happiness and bliss cannot be found in faith or belief systems. They emphasis that only in the direct experience of the Source or Reality behind all appearances can true peace of mind be found. You see, the problem with beliefs and opinions is that they all take place within the thinking mind, and Reality cannot be captured within the limitations of thought. So mystics don’t have beliefs as such, and don’t feel the need to explain anything.

The original problem, as mystics see it, was that in developing the ability to think and become self aware, humans suffered both a gain and a loss. By substituting words and concepts for Reality, they could communicate, store knowledge, and anticipate the future. But unfortunately, thinking separates the world through a process of naming and labeling. The thinking process breaks a seamless Reality into small bits and pieces. But Reality is a whole, and cannot be separated into parts. And of course, the minute you label a thing as a tree or as a person, it becomes a dead concept, a lifeless thing. And your view is constricted because thoughts are limited to a single file flow. They can never capture Reality, which happens all-at-once.

Now every time you identify an object as being separate from yourself, it reinforces the illusion that there is a separate “you” aware of the objects. This feeling of separateness is the ego. It doesn’t really exist as a separate identity, but it is who most people think they are. They buy into the ego’s false sense of self. People mistake the ability to stand aside, and observe themselves as separate, as being the same thing as actually being separate.

Because egos feel separate, they take on a life of their own. In truth, egos have no pride and will do anything to survive. But they are constantly forced to defend and define themselves, and worse, they are in constant fear of death. That’s why at the deepest level, egos are unhappy and suffer. And every time a new opinion, belief, preference, like or dislike, is added to the mind, the ego gets stronger, while its fears grow greater. After awhile, this becomes a huge waste of psychic energy.

Although concepts cannot describe Reality they can act as pointers. Words like: “Reality,” “God,” “Consciousness,” “Awareness,” “Love,” “Enlightenment,” “Tao,” “the Void,” “WhatIs,” are all pointers.

Concepts are always formed in pairs of opposites. This apparent splitting of Reality is called dualism. But reality cannot be split. Everything is intimately joined through a process of interconnectedness and interpenetration. The dualism that most sustains the ego’s structure is that of “desire” and “fear.” And so it’s also the dualism that is the source of all the world’s suffering.

Beliefs are concepts that are held tightly by the ego. They separate you from the direct experiencing of Reality.

The mystics say that only when concepts and beliefs are transcended, can true union with Reality take place. It’s in the giving up of opinions, for or against things, that Joy and Bliss are experienced. It’s in the giving up of attachments to the objects of the world that true Freedom is found. Then you become the Awareness of the concepts, not the concepts. You realize you are the Consciousness of the objects, not the objects themselves. You are the Space that allows all this to happen. This Higher Self has always been there, hidden behind the ego. You are the Divine Self that is birthless and deathless and encompasses all of existence. You are the Eternal.

Most people feel they are an entity that moves through time because they can remember a past and anticipate a future. But time itself is a concept. There is only the Present, or Now moment. All memories of the “past” are happening right now. All anticipations of the “future” are happening in this same Now moment. But because of the constant flow of thoughts about the “past” and “future” humans rarely experience the eternal Now and therefore are lost in the illusions of time. As you become more Present, and live more and more in the Now, you start to experience a world where everything is new. It’s as if you are being reborn, each and every moment, into the exciting worlds of discovery and exploration you enjoyed as a child.

The ego dominated mind would have you believe that it is the source of your thoughts. But you are bigger than your thoughts because something else is Aware of them. Something watches them as they go by. This hidden Observer is who you really are. But you can never “know” what it is because it is the Knower. Just as a finger cannot touch itself, Awareness can never become aware of itself. But by suspending thought, it can be experienced directly as the Spaciousness in which all things happen. It is the blank canvass, upon which everything takes place.

But I don’t feel it is necessary to put the ego to death, as you suggest. After all, it is our software for operating at this level of consciousness, and it can be a useful tool. It’s more a matter of not letting it become our master, but seeing through its illusions so that it can become our servant. While Western religions want to change the individual’s belief systems, Eastern religions want to change consciousness itself. They want to change the way you experience yourself and the world around you. They don’t require “beliefs” in anything. Beliefs only strengthen the ego’s hold on your mind. But by changing the conscious way you perceive yourself, so that you no longer feel isolated and separate from the world, you gain freedom from the ego. In truth, you are no different from the Source of all that is or ever will be. You are pure Spirit and cannot be diluted by the appearance of things.

You feel you are an observer somehow set apart from the world. You feel you are something that has experiences. That they happen to you. But both the experiencer and the thing experienced arise together as one experiencing. There’s no separation between “you” as observer and “you” as the thing observed. You are the observing. You are the experiencing. You are the happening. You are the living process.

Odd as it may sound, each being actually evokes a separate universe through the nature of their senses. You are translating a world of different vibrating frequencies into states of your own consciousness. But it’s all happening within your head. No one really knows what’s out there. Even worse, the ego tries to freeze what is a constantly changing flux of outside events into a set of words or concepts. But it’s not really Reality. Reality is always changing, never the same, and cannot be captured by any set of words. Reality just Is.

It is sad that most human beings feel themselves to be small limited egos trapped inside a body that’s destined to die out from under them. But as children, this is what our parents and society taught us, and so our minds were conditioned to believe this. But without the support of thoughts like this, an egoless state emerges were you feel there is no difference between what happens to you and what you are. In this Spaciousness, you no longer feel like a victim of life, because now you are Life itself.

The Grateful Dead were reflecting this mystical idea when they sang: “Wake up and find out that you are the eyes of the world.” The mystic view is that all individual I’s are the Universe, eyeing itself, through billions of different points of view.

The problem with the Garden of Eden story is that it takes a natural, positive development in the evolution of human consciousness and tries to turn it into a negative. All religions have some sort of “creation story” that explains how the One become the many. How the Unmanifested becomes the manifest. How the formless becomes form. But most see this as a natural thing that had to happen in order for there to be anything at all.

Why call it “the fall of Man?” Why lay such a heavy guilt trip on the creative process? Why create a false problem, and then offer a false solution? There was no problem to begin with, and no solution is needed now.

The worst part of this story is that the concepts of “shame” and “disobedience” that it creates only serve to strengthen the ego through feeling of guilt. And it’s also unfair because egos have no real “free will” to begin with. They operate from within a conditioned mind that has no control. Even if egos did have free will, the part of the story I never understood as a child was, why give Conscious “free will” and then demand that it make “right” choices? There’s no free will in that.

In the Eastern view there are no right or wrong choices. You cannot make a mistake in this game. That’s because the “you” that makes choices is the same “You” that is the Self of the World. They don’t see the world as created by an outside force. They view matter and the universe as being self forming. The world is organic to them, much like a plant or flower, and grows from the inside out. Therefore, Man and Nature have no boss. Or more accurately, you yourself at some level are the boss.

Of course your choices will have consequences and will determine what follows. Actions produce effects. If you cause unpleasantness to others now, you can expect to receive unpleasantness later on. It’s called Karma. But since you are the timeless Source, nothing in life or death can really hurt you. That’s the good news all the mystics are trying to tell you – the real “you” was never born and can never die. (Although as egos, you can forget this for awhile.)

It is in surrendering to “what is” that you can return to the serenity of the Now moment. By accepting yourself and the world around you just as you both are, you free yourself from the ego’s concepts of time and space. And more importantly, this freedom is available Now. You don’t have to wait until the body dies in order to find this happiness which is Heaven. To have to wait to be happy, is to be held in bondage.

There is nothing you can “do” to awaken from your dream of separateness and “achieve” this state of Enlightenment. However, there are practices like meditation, mindfulness, direct seeing, witnessing, self remembering, and being present in the Now moment, which can all allow the space and silence in which Enlightenment can happen on its own.
If you go inward and just surrender, all suffering ends.
If you quiet the mind and accept all that is, the veils separating you from your true Self will thin out.

You might ask: “How will I know I have arrived at the real thing? How will I know this is the actual Experience of Awakening, Awareness, Enlightenment, Consciousness, ‘God’, Reality, or whatever you want to call it, and not just another concept, or pointer?” You know because unlike concepts and pointers, this state has no opposite.

Now you exist as Choiceless Awareness.
Now you silently observe the world without comment. Now you are spaciousness, now you are the One... Now everything happens on its own.

“Sitting quietly,
Doing nothing,
Spring comes,
And the grass grows by itself.” The Zenrin

Steve’s Reply:

I find it very interesting: the path you took, and how early you chose it. Your reasons are also interesting, in that happiness was your compass, from the start of your spiritual quest. I hadn't realized that you were unhappy. I knew Frank, our brother, became very unhappy before being diagnosed with Schizophrenia. Frank used to blame Grandmother, for many years, for his condition.

Our lack of a father did have a profound affect on each of our lives, yet in surprisingly different ways. Clearly the lack of a father resulted in freedom during our adolescence, and early teens, which we could never have had otherwise; but that freedom came after several years of Grandmother taking care of us, while our mother worked; several years of much pain.

When you described being “put off” by the notion that God was always looking over your shoulder, and judging your actions and your thoughts, I thought immediately of Grandmother. Grandmother was always looking over our shoulders, and judging our actions and our thoughts. She would even spy on us, trying to catch us doing things wrong. I think, to you, the notion of “God,” was Grandmother, only bigger and meaner. I don't blame you for looking for something else.

For me, the Journey was to find answers to so many Questions.

My search was for TRUTH.

The first question I remember came as I watched the Sun go down just over the hill behind our house. I could see that the hill was not very far away, and the Sun would go down just on the other side. I would imagine what it would look like if I climbed up that hill and watched it set down. I wondered, what would it look like up close?? It was like a big bright orange ball when it got low in the sky.

Then the Question began to stir in me; how do they get the Sun back to the other side??? I saw that it always went only one way. I couldn't figure out how they got the Sun back each night.

I would lay awake imagining a conveyor system of some kind, moving the Sun under the ground, back to the other side; but I couldn't work it through in my mind. I asked you and Frank, who were both older than me. You didn't know either.

Our mother responded by giving me a book on astr