STRANGER: Again, let us take some process of speaking of twisting, to be referring to manufacture wool-working which is also a portion of the art of of the warp?
composition, and, dismissing the elements of division which we found there, make two halves, one STRANGER: Yes, and of the woof too; how, if not on the principle of composition, and the other on by twisting, is the woof made?
the principle of division.
YOUNG SOCRATES: There is no other way.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Let that be done.
STRANGER: Then suppose that you define the STRANGER: And once more, Socrates, we must warp and the woof, for I think that the definition divide the part which belongs at once both to wool-will be of use to you.
working and composition, if we are ever to discover satisfactorily the aforesaid art of weaving.
YOUNG SOCRATES: How shall I define them?
YOUNG SOCRATES: We must.
STRANGER: As thus: A piece of carded wool which is drawn out lengthwise and breadthwise is said to STRANGER: Yes, certainly, and let us call one part be pulled out.
of the art the art of twisting threads, the other the art of combining them.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Do I understand you, in STRANGER: And the wool thus prepared, when 92
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twisted by the spindle, and made into a firm thread, intertexture of warp and woof, the entire woven sub-is called the warp, and the art which regulates these stance is called by us a woollen garment, and the operations the art of spinning the warp.
art which presides over this is the art of weaving.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
STRANGER: And the threads which are more STRANGER: But why did we not say at once that loosely spun, having a softness proportioned to the weaving is the art of entwining warp and woof, in-intertexture of the warp and to the degree of force stead of making a long and useless circuit?
used in dressing the cloth,—the threads which are thus spun are called the woof, and the art which is YOUNG SOCRATES: I thought, Stranger, that set over them may be called the art of spinning the there was nothing useless in what was said.
woof.
STRANGER: Very likely, but you may not always YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
think so, my sweet friend; and in case any feeling of dissatisfaction should hereafter arise in your STRANGER: And, now, there can be no mistake mind, as it very well may, let me lay down a prin-about the nature of the part of weaving which we ciple which will apply to arguments in general.
have undertaken to define. For when that part of the art of composition which is employed in the YOUNG SOCRATES: Proceed.
working of wool forms a web by the regular 93
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STRANGER: Let us begin by considering the whole YOUNG SOCRATES: Where would you make the nature of excess and defect, and then we shall have division?
a rational ground on which we may praise or blame too much length or too much shortness in discus-STRANGER: As thus: I would make two parts, one sions of this kind.
having regard to the relativity of greatness and small-ness to each other; and there is another, without YOUNG SOCRATES: Let us do so.
which the existence of production would be impossible.
STRANGER: The points on which I think that we ought to dwell are the following:—
YOUNG SOCRATES: What do you mean?
YOUNG SOCRATES: What?
STRANGER: Do you not think that it is only natural for the greater to be called greater with reference STRANGER: Length and shortness, excess and defect; to the less alone, and the less less with reference to with all of these the art of measurement is conversant.
the greater alone?
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
STRANGER: And the art of measurement has to STRANGER: Well, but is there not also something be divided into two parts, with a view to our present exceeding and exceeded by the principle of the purpose.
mean, both in speech and action, and is not this a 94
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reality, and the chief mark of difference between ruin of all the arts and their creations; would not good and bad men?
the art of the Statesman and the aforesaid art of weaving disappear? For all these arts are on the YOUNG SOCRATES: Plainly.
watch against excess and defect, not as unrealities, but as real evils, which occasion a difficulty in ac-STRANGER: Then we must suppose that the great tion; and the excellence or beauty of every work of and small exist and are discerned in both these ways, art is due to this observance of measure.
and not, as we were saying before, only relatively to one another, but there must also be another com-YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
parison of them with the mean or ideal standard; would you like to hear the reason why?
STRANGER: But if the science of the Statesman disappears, the search for the royal science will be YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly.
impossible.
STRANGER: If we assume the greater to exist only YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
in relation to the less, there will never be any comparison of either with the mean.
STRANGER: Well, then, as in the case of the Sophist we extorted the inference that not-being had an YOUNG SOCRATES: True.
existence, because here was the point at which the argument eluded our grasp, so in this we must en-STRANGER: And would not this doctrine be the deavour to show that the greater and less are not 95
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only to be measured with one another, but also have not only with one another, but also with a view to to do with the production of the mean; for if this is the attainment of the mean, seems to afford a grand not admitted, neither a statesman nor any other support and satisfactory proof of the doctrine which man of action can be an undisputed master of his we are maintaining; for if there are arts, there is a science.
standard of measure, and if there is a standard of measure, there are arts; but if either is wanting, there YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes, we must certainly do is neither.
again what we did then.
YOUNG SOCRATES: True; and what is the next STRANGER: But this, Socrates, is a greater work step?
than the other, of which we only too well remember the length. I think, however, that we may fairly STRANGER: The next step clearly is to divide the assume something of this sort—
art of measurement into two parts, as we have said already, and to place in the one part all the arts YOUNG SOCRATES: What?
which measure number, length, depth, breadth, swiftness with their opposites; and to have another STRANGER: That we shall some day require this part in which they are measured with the mean, notion of a mean with a view to the demonstration and the fit, and the opportune, and the due, and of absolute truth; meanwhile, the argument that with all those words, in short, which denote a mean the very existence of the arts must be held to de-or standard removed from the extremes.
pend on the possibility of measuring more or less, 96
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YOUNG SOCRATES: Here are two vast divisions, seen in a multitude of things until he has compre-embracing two very different spheres.
hended all of them that have any affinity within the bounds of one similarity and embraced them STRANGER: There are many accomplished men, within the reality of a single kind. But we have said Socrates, who say, believing themselves to speak enough on this head, and also of excess and defect; wisely, that the art of measurement is universal, and we have only to bear in mind that two divisions of has to do with all things. And this means what we the art of measurement have been discovered which are now saying; for all things which come within are concerned with them, and not forget what they the province of art do certainly in some sense par-are.
take of measure. But these persons, because they are not accustomed to distinguish classes according YOUNG SOCRATES: We will not forget.
to real forms, jumble together two widely different things, relation to one another, and to a standard, STRANGER: And now that this discussion is com-under the idea that they are the same, and also fall pleted, let us go on to consider another question, into the converse error of dividing other things not which concerns not this argument only but the con-according to their real parts. Whereas the right way duct of such arguments in general.
is, if a man has first seen the unity of things, to go on with the enquiry and not desist until he has YOUNG SOCRATES: What is this new question?
found all the differences contained in it which form distinct classes; nor again should he be able to rest STRANGER: Take the case of a child who is en-contented with the manifold diversities which are gaged in learning his letters: when he is asked what 97
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letters make up a word, should we say that the ques-outward image of themselves visible to man, which tion is intended to improve his grammatical knowl-he who wishes to satisfy the soul of the enquirer edge of that particular word, or of all words?
can adapt to the eye of sense (compare Phaedr.), and therefore we ought to train ourselves to give YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly, in order that he may and accept a rational account of them; for immate-have a better knowledge of all words.
rial things, which are the noblest and greatest, are shown only in thought and idea, and in no other STRANGER: And is our enquiry about the States-way, and all that we are now saying is said for the man intended only to improve our knowledge of sake of them. Moreover, there is always less diffi-politics, or our power of reasoning generally?
culty in fixing the mind on small matters than on great.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Clearly, as in the former example, the purpose is general.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.
STRANGER: Still less would any rational man seek STRANGER: Let us call to mind the bearing of all to analyse the notion of weaving for its own sake.
this.
But people seem to forget that some things have sensible images, which are readily known, and can YOUNG SOCRATES: What is it?
be easily pointed out when any one desires to answer an enquirer without any trouble or argument; STRANGER: I wanted to get rid of any impression whereas the greatest and highest truths have no of tediousness which we may have experienced in 98
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the discussion about weaving, and the reversal of STRANGER: And yet, not everything is to be judged the universe, and in the discussion concerning the even with a view to what is fitting; for we should Sophist and the being of not-being. I know that only want such a length as is suited to give plea-they were felt to be too long, and I reproached my-sure, if at all, as a secondary matter; and reason self with this, fearing that they might be not only tells us, that we should be contented to make the tedious but irrelevant; and all that I have now said ease or rapidity of an enquiry, not our first, but our is only designed to prevent the recurrence of any second object; the first and highest of all being to such disagreeables for the future.
assert the great method of division according to species—whether the discourse be shorter or longer YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good. Will you proceed?
is not to the point. No offence should be taken at length, but the longer and shorter are to be em-STRANGER: Then I would like to observe that you ployed indifferently, according as either of them is and I, remembering what has been said, should better calculated to sharpen the wits of the audi-praise or blame the length or shortness of discus-tors. Reason would also say to him who censures sions, not by comparing them with one another, the length of discourses on such occasions and can-but with what is fitting, having regard to the part not away with their circumlocution, that he should of measurement, which, as we said, was to be borne not be in such a hurry to have done with them, in mind.
when he can only complain that they are tedious, but he should prove that if they had been shorter YOUNG SOCRATES: Very true.
they would have made those who took part in them better dialecticians, and more capable of expressing 99
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the truth of things; about any other praise and ily be divided into two halves; the reason will be blame, he need not trouble himself—he should pre-very evident as we proceed.
tend not to hear them. But we have had enough of this, as you will probably agree with me in think-YOUNG SOCRATES: Then we had better do so.
ing. Let us return to our Statesman, and apply to his case the aforesaid example of weaving.
STRANGER: We must carve them like a victim into members or limbs, since we cannot bisect them.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good;—let us do as you (Compare Phaedr.) For we certainly should divide say.
everything into as few parts as possible.
STRANGER: The art of the king has been sepa-YOUNG SOCRATES: What is to be done in this rated from the similar arts of shepherds, and, in-case?
deed, from all those which have to do with herds at all. There still remain, however, of the causal and STRANGER: What we did in the example of weav-co-operative arts those which are immediately con-ing—all those arts which furnish the tools were re-cerned with States, and which must first be distin-garded by us as co-operative.
guished from one another.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Yes.
YOUNG SOCRATES: Very good.
STRANGER: So now, and with still more reason, STRANGER: You know that these arts cannot eas-all arts which make any implement in a State, 100
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whether great or small, may be regarded by us as YOUNG SOCRATES: To what do you refer?
co-operative, for without them neither State nor Statesmanship would be possible; and yet we are STRANGER: To the class of vessels, as they are com-not inclined to say that any of them is a product of prehensively termed, which are constructed for the the kingly art.
preservation of things moist and dry, of things prepared in the fire or out of the fire; this is a very YOUNG SOCRATES: No, indeed.
large class, and has, if I am not mistaken, literally nothing to do with the royal art of which we are in STRANGER: The task of separating this class from search.
others is not an easy one; for there is plausibility in saying that anything in the world is the instrument YOUNG SOCRATES: Certainly not.
of doing something. But there is another class of possessions in a city, of which I have a word to say.
STRANGER: There is also a third class of possessions to be noted, different from these and very YOUNG SOCRATES: What class do you mean?
extensive, moving or resting on land or water, honourable and also dishonourable. The whole of STRANGER: A class which may be described as this class has one name, because it is intended to not having this power; that is to say, not like an be sat upon, being always a seat for something.
instrument, framed for production, but designed for the preservation of that which is produced.
YOUNG SOCRATES: What is it?