Platos Gorgias
GORGIAS: By all means.
counsel? Surely not. For at every election he ought to be chosen who is most skilled; and, again, when walls have to be built or SOCRATES: And which sort of persuasion does rhetoric harbours or docks to be constructed, not the rhetorician but the create in courts of law and other assemblies about the just master workman will advise; or when generals have to be cho-and unjust, the sort of persuasion which gives belief with-sen and an order of battle arranged, or a position taken, then the out knowledge, or that which gives knowledge?
military will advise and not the rhetoricians: what do you say, Gorgias? Since you profess to be a rhetorician and a maker of GORGIAS: Clearly, Socrates, that which only gives belief.
rhetoricians, I cannot do better than learn the nature of your art from you. And here let me assure you that I have your interest SOCRATES: Then rhetoric, as would appear, is the artifi-in view as well as my own. For likely enough some one or other cer of a persuasion which creates belief about the just and of the young men present might desire to become your pupil, unjust, but gives no instruction about them?
and in fact I see some, and a good many too, who have this wish, but they would be too modest to question you. And therefore GORGIAS: True.
when you are interrogated by me, I would have you imagine that you are interrogated by them. What is the use of coming to SOCRATES: And the rhetorician does not instruct the you, Gorgias? they will sayabout what will you teach us to courts of law or other assemblies about things just and un-advise the state?about the just and unjust only, or about those just, but he creates belief about them; for no one can be other things also which Socrates has just mentioned? How will supposed to instruct such a vast multitude about such high you answer them?
matters in a short time?
GORGIAS: I like your way of leading us on, Socrates, and GORGIAS: Certainly not.
I will endeavour to reveal to you the whole nature of rhetoric. You must have heard, I think, that the docks and the SOCRATES: Come, then, and let us see what we really mean walls of the Athenians and the plan of the harbour were about rhetoric; for I do not know what my own meaning is as devised in accordance with the counsels, partly of yet. When the assembly meets to elect a physician or a ship-Themistocles, and partly of Pericles, and not at the sugges-wright or any other craftsman, will the rhetorician be taken into tion of the builders.