Platos Gorgias
SOCRATES: Then, when the rhetorician is more persua-ing is to be esteemed to know more about these things than sive than the physician, the ignorant is more persuasive with some one else who knows? Or must the pupil know these the ignorant than he who has knowledge?is not that the things and come to you knowing them before he can ac-inference?
quire the art of rhetoric? If he is ignorant, you who are the teacher of rhetoric will not teach himit is not your busi-GORGIAS: In the case supposed:yes.
ness; but you will make him seem to the multitude to know them, when he does not know them; and seem to be a good SOCRATES: And the same holds of the relation of rheto-man, when he is not. Or will you be unable to teach him ric to all the other arts; the rhetorician need not know the rhetoric at all, unless he knows the truth of these things truth about things; he has only to discover some way of first? What is to be said about all this? By heavens, Gorgias, persuading the ignorant that he has more knowledge than I wish that you would reveal to me the power of rhetoric, as those who know?
you were saying that you would.
GORGIAS: Yes, Socrates, and is not this a great comfort?
GORGIAS: Well, Socrates, I suppose that if the pupil does not to have learned the other arts, but the art of rhetoric chance not to know them, he will have to learn of me these only, and yet to be in no way inferior to the professors of things as well.
them?
SOCRATES: Say no more, for there you are right; and so SOCRATES: Whether the rhetorician is or not inferior he whom you make a rhetorician must either know the on this account is a question which we will hereafter exam-nature of the just and unjust already, or he must be taught ine if the enquiry is likely to be of any service to us; but I by you.
would rather begin by asking, whether he is or is not as ignorant of the just and unjust, base and honourable, good GORGIAS: Certainly.
and evil, as he is of medicine and the other arts; I mean to say, does he really know anything of what is good and evil, SOCRATES: Well, and is not he who has learned carpen-base or honourable, just or unjust in them; or has he only a tering a carpenter?
way with the ignorant of persuading them that he not know-73
Platos Gorgias
GORGIAS: Yes.
SOCRATES: Surely, then, the just man will never consent to do injustice?
SOCRATES: And he who has learned music a musician?
GORGIAS: Certainly not.
GORGIAS: Yes.
SOCRATES: And according to the argument the rhetori-SOCRATES: And he who has learned medicine is a physician must be a just man?
cian, in like manner? He who has learned anything whatever is that which his knowledge makes him.
GORGIAS: Yes.
GORGIAS: Certainly.
SOCRATES: And will therefore never be willing to do injustice?
SOCRATES: And in the same way, he who has learned what is just is just?
GORGIAS: Clearly not.
GORGIAS: To be sure.
SOCRATES: But do you remember saying just now that the trainer is not to be accused or banished if the pugilist makes SOCRATES: And he who is just may be supposed to do a wrong use of his pugilistic art; and in like manner, if the what is just?
rhetorician makes a bad and unjust use of his rhetoric, that is not to be laid to the charge of his teacher, who is not to be GORGIAS: Yes.
banished, but the wrong-doer himself who made a bad use of his rhetoriche is to be banishedwas not that said?
SOCRATES: And must not the just man always desire to do what is just?
GORGIAS: Yes, it was.
GORGIAS: That is clearly the inference.
SOCRATES: But now we are affirming that the aforesaid rhetorician will never have done injustice at all?