Platos Gorgias
GORGIAS: True.
who came to him ignorant of them he could teach them, and then out of this admission there arose a contradiction
SOCRATES: And at the very outset, Gorgias, it was said the thing which you dearly love, and to which not he, but that rhetoric treated of discourse, not (like arithmetic) about you, brought the argument by your captious questions(do odd and even, but about just and unjust? Was not this said?
you seriously believe that there is any truth in all this?) For will any one ever acknowledge that he does not know, or GORGIAS: Yes.
cannot teach, the nature of justice? The truth is, that there is great want of manners in bringing the argument to such a SOCRATES: I was thinking at the time, when I heard you pass.
saying so, that rhetoric, which is always discoursing about justice, could not possibly be an unjust thing. But when you SOCRATES: Illustrious Polus, the reason why we provide added, shortly afterwards, that the rhetorician might make ourselves with friends and children is, that when we get old a bad use of rhetoric I noted with surprise the inconsis-and stumble, a younger generation may be at hand to set us tency into which you had fallen; and I said, that if you on our legs again in our words and in our actions: and now, thought, as I did, that there was a gain in being refuted, if I and Gorgias are stumbling, here are you who should there would be an advantage in going on with the question, raise us up; and I for my part engage to retract any error but if not, I would leave off. And in the course of our inves-into which you may think that I have fallen-upon one con-tigations, as you will see yourself, the rhetorician has been dition:
acknowledged to be incapable of making an unjust use of rhetoric, or of willingness to do injustice. By the dog, POLUS: What condition?
Gorgias, there will be a great deal of discussion, before we get at the truth of all this.
SOCRATES: That you contract, Polus, the prolixity of speech in which you indulged at first.
POLUS: And do even you, Socrates, seriously believe what you are now saying about rhetoric? What! because Gorgias POLUS: What! do you mean that I may not use as many was ashamed to deny that the rhetorician knew the just and words as I please?
the honourable and the good, and admitted that to any one 75
Platos Gorgias
SOCRATES: Only to think, my friend, that having come on SOCRATES: Do you mean what sort of an art?
a visit to Athens, which is the most free-spoken state in Hellas, you when you got there, and you alone, should be deprived POLUS: Yes.
of the power of speechthat would be hard indeed. But then consider my case:shall not I be very hardly used, if, when SOCRATES: To say the truth, Polus, it is not an art at all, you are making a long oration, and refusing to answer what in my opinion.
you are asked, I am compelled to stay and listen to you, and may not go away? I say rather, if you have a real interest in POLUS: Then what, in your opinion, is rhetoric?
the argument, or, to repeat my former expression, have any desire to set it on its legs, take back any statement which you SOCRATES: A thing which, as I was lately reading in a please; and in your turn ask and answer, like myself and book of yours, you say that you have made an art.
Gorgiasrefute and be refuted: for I suppose that you would claim to know what Gorgias knowswould you not?
POLUS: What thing?
POLUS: Yes.
SOCRATES: I should say a sort of experience.
SOCRATES: And you, like him, invite any one to ask you POLUS: Does rhetoric seem to you to be an experience?
about anything which he pleases, and you will know how to answer him?
SOCRATES: That is my view, but you may be of another mind.
POLUS: To be sure.
POLUS: An experience in what?
SOCRATES: And now, which will you do, ask or answer?
SOCRATES: An experience in producing a sort of delight and gratification.
POLUS: I will ask; and do you answer me, Socrates, the same question which Gorgias, as you suppose, is unable to POLUS: And if able to gratify others, must not rhetoric be answer: What is rhetoric?
a fine thing?