Platos Gorgias
POLUS: And that is what I do mean to say.
you, Polus, that rhetoricians and tyrants have the least possible power in states, as I was just now saying; for they do SOCRATES: Then, if so, I think that they have the least literally nothing which they will, but only what they think power of all the citizens.
best.
POLUS: What! are they not like tyrants? They kill and POLUS: And is not that a great power?
despoil and exile any one whom they please.
SOCRATES: Polus has already said the reverse.
SOCRATES: By the dog, Polus, I cannot make out at each deliverance of yours, whether you are giving an opinion of POLUS: Said the reverse! nay, that is what I assert.
your own, or asking a question of me.
SOCRATES: No, by the greatwhat do you call him?not POLUS: I am asking a question of you.
you, for you say that power is a good to him who has the power.
SOCRATES: Yes, my friend, but you ask two questions at once.
POLUS: I do.
POLUS: How two questions?
SOCRATES: And would you maintain that if a fool does what he thinks best, this is a good, and would you call this SOCRATES: Why, did you not say just now that the rheto-great power?
ricians are like tyrants, and that they kill and despoil or exile any one whom they please?
POLUS: I should not.
POLUS: I did.
SOCRATES: Then you must prove that the rhetorician is not a fool, and that rhetoric is an art and not a flatteryand SOCRATES: Well then, I say to you that here are two so you will have refuted me; but if you leave me unrefuted, questions in one, and I will answer both of them. And I tell why, the rhetoricians who do what they think best in states, 81
Platos Gorgias
and the tyrants, will have nothing upon which to congratu-SOCRATES: Aye.
late themselves, if as you say, power be indeed a good, admitting at the same time that what is done without sense is POLUS: That, Socrates, is monstrous and absurd.
an evil.
SOCRATES: Good words, good Polus, as I may say in POLUS: Yes; I admit that.
your own peculiar style; but if you have any questions to ask of me, either prove that I am in error or give the answer SOCRATES: How then can the rhetoricians or the tyrants yourself.
have great power in states, unless Polus can refute Socrates, and prove to him that they do as they will?
POLUS: Very well, I am willing to answer that I may know what you mean.
POLUS: This fellow
SOCRATES: Do men appear to you to will that which they SOCRATES: I say that they do not do as they will;now do, or to will that further end for the sake of which they do refute me.
a thing? when they take medicine, for example, at the bid-ding of a physician, do they will the drinking of the medi-POLUS: Why, have you not already said that they do as cine which is painful, or the health for the sake of which they think best?
they drink?
SOCRATES: And I say so still.
POLUS: Clearly, the health.
POLUS: Then surely they do as they will?
SOCRATES: And when men go on a voyage or engage in business, they do not will that which they are doing at the SOCRATES: I deny it.
time; for who would desire to take the risk of a voyage or the trouble of business?But they will, to have the wealth POLUS: But they do what they think best?
for the sake of which they go on a voyage.