Zingdad: Hi 8.
8: Hello my dear friend. What are we going to talk about today?
Z: Gee, 8, I was going to ask you that.
8: Consider it open mic night at Club 8 (he smiles). You choose the subject.
Z: Well, there is something that has been on my mind a bit. It is the matter of "evil".
You and J-D have both stated that everyone creates their own reality. You have made the case that everyone, through their choices, creates all the things that have happened in their lives. Even the bad things. But that has got me wondering... does this mean there is no such thing as evil? And if there is such a thing... what exactly is it?
8: Ah, yes. A very interesting question. Do you want the short answer or the long answer?
Z: I guess shorter is probably better...
8: All right then. The short answer is:
"If there is such a thing as evil, then it is an opportunity to learn about love."
Z: That's it?!?
8: Yes. That's it.
Z: No no no no no no no no. You don't understand. I'm talking about evil here. I'm talking about things such as people who are willing to commit genocide – murdering whole populations of other people for the sake of power or wealth or political expediency. I'm talking about terrorists who have no regard for the sanctity of life. And people who would commit rape. People who would abuse children and babies. You know? That's what I'm asking about. Real evil. And what about demons? Are there really such beings? And is there really such a thing as demonic possession? I want to know all of it. And while we are at it, I want to know if there is such a being as Lucifer. You know... Satan... The Devil... him. Does he really exist? That is what I want to know about. Once and for all, I want to know about all that dark stuff so I can figure out what to do about it. And please, 8... you can't be wanting to tell me that it's all just an opportunity to "learn about love"! Surely? If you had incarnated on Earth you'd know that there is some really, really atrocious stuff going on down here!
8: Ah. I see. So apparently you want the long answer then.
Z: The long answer?
8: I just said that the short answer is, "If there is such a thing as evil, then it is an opportunity to learn about love". That doesn't seem to please you. So we'll do the long answer instead. It will be, by far, our longest conversation yet. It will wend its way past numerous fascinating points and then eventually arrive at the same end-point as the short answer: "If there is such a thing as evil, then it is an opportunity to learn about love." And then, when we have arrived at that point, you will want to know more about love itself. And so that will be our next chapter: "What is Love?"
Z: You seem pretty sure about all this.
8: I've seen this discussion from many perspectives. I know what to expect.
So now. It seems to me that you want us to address two basic questions. First, "What is evil?" Second, "How should one respond to the presence of evil?" And, finally, you want to know about this little list of horrors that you have come up with. We will deal with that under the heading, "Manifestations of evil."
How does that sound?
Z: Thank you, 8. That sounds right.
8: Okay then, let's get started. Question 1:
We need to agree on a definition for evil before we can properly discuss it. Otherwise we might have different things in mind and all manner of misapprehensions might creep in.
Z: I agree.
8: Good. Then how do you feel about this definition for evil:
"Evil is any action, which seems to take away a being's right to choose.”
Z: Umm. Well... I don't know about that. That doesn't seem quite right. That seems... a bit... lame.
8: Lame? You clearly have not given this due consideration! I'll explain this to you, but in order to do so, I need you to name three actions that you would consider to be evil.
Z: Three evil actions? All right. How about rape, murder and theft?
8: That will do very well for the purposes of this example. Let's start with rape.
Let's say we have two people: Person A and Person B. They are both adults of sober mind and in full possession of all their faculties. They are also strangers to one another and have had no previous dealings whatsoever.
Z: Right.
8: Now, if Person A were to approach Person B, and say something like, "I'd really like to have sex with you; would you like to have sex with me too?" would that be evil?
Z: Err... no.
Somewhat forward.
And probably not the most successful strategy I've ever heard of.
But it's not evil.
8: Good. And then, if person B, said, "No thank you," and the two of them went their separate ways, would that be evil?
Z: No, obviously not.
8: And what if person A said, "Yes, sure," and they actually did have sex?
Z: Then they'd both be very, very easy (laughs).
8: I concede (he smiles). But still this isn't actually evil?
Z: Not in any way that I can see. Two consenting adults, who know what they want, agreeing to have sex? That's not evil. It's not my style to have sex with strangers and I personally can think of all kinds of reasons why it's a bad idea. But that's me. If there are two people out there agreeing to it, then that's their stuff. But it's certainly not evil.
8: Now let's see what happens when we remove the element of choice from one of the participants in the equation. Now Person A approaches person B and offers person B no choice whatsoever but simply coerces person B, by force or threat, into non-consensual sex. Is that evil?
Z: That's rape. And yes, I very much do think that's evil.
8: Well then, that is my point exactly. It isn't the act that is evil. It is the fact of someone feeling that their choices have been taken away. That is what is evil.
Z: Ah yes. I do see your point.
8: And the exact same case can be made with every single other act that you might try to define as evil. To further illustrate my point, let us look at another of the actions that you named: murder.
What if Person A approached Person B and said, "Would you like me to terminate your connection with your body?"
And Person B replies, "Yes, please."
What then?
Z: Hmm. That would be weird.
I suppose, at a push, I can envisage a circumstance where this could happen. If Person B, for example, is terminally ill and suffering unbearable pain and Person A, out of a feeling of compassion, offers to help Person B to die. This sort of thing does happen sometimes. It's called assisted suicide.
8: In the culture you currently inhabit there are many taboos around death and dying which spring from the powerful illusion that death is final. That it is your end. There have been other cultures on your planet that have known that death is simply a transition. Like going to sleep before again waking up. Like breathing out before again breathing in. This view is the predominant view in more advanced cultures on other planets too. It is a more beneficial perspective, as it allows you to be less rigid and fearful around the notion of death. And in such cultures, if it happens that a being comes to a place where they feel that their path is best served by their departure from the mortal plane, then that being might find a way to leave on their own, or they might be assisted to go. Their passing might even be ritualised into a grand celebration where some "holy person" is responsible for the termination of the body connection. Such things would seem abominable to most in your culture but only because your context is mostly one of a desperate fear of death. From the context of such other civilisations it can be a beautiful and glorious thing.
Z: That's most interesting, 8. I can see how that might be.
8: But this is not how it is in your culture. Choosing to terminate your connection with your body is seldom seen as an acceptable choice in your culture, is it?
Z: No it really isn't. In fact suicide is actually considered to be a crime in many countries. I've always thought that to be odd. I mean how are you going to punish the "criminal" who has just killed himself? But anyhow, as a result of this taboo, assisted suicide is one of those legal and ethical morasses. In some countries it is legally permissible and in others it isn't. And there certainly are ethical considerations that need to be addressed.
8: Are there really? Well you go ahead and address them all you like. For myself, I am quite clear on what I hold to be right. In this regard, as in all others, my position is this:
Whoever you are, whatever the situation, I believe in your right to choose for yourself.
I believe it is your job to know best what is right for you. And no-one should therefore take from you your right to choose.
If you feel you need advice or guidance in making any choice, then those whom you hold to be the wisest and best informed may be asked to assist you in making your choice. And these ones have the right to agree to assist you, to refuse to assist you, or to ask for fair compensation for assisting you. If they agree to assist you, then they must take responsibility for their assistance.
If you are somehow incapacitated and are therefore not in a position to be able to choose, then those whom you love most must choose for you and must take responsibility for their choice.
If you are somehow incapacitated and you find that you cannot enact the choices you have made for yourself, then you have the right to ask someone whom you consider competent to assist you in enacting that choice. And that person has the right to agree to assist you, to refuse to assist you, or to ask for fair compensation for assisting you. And they must take responsibility for the assistance they have rendered.
And that is what is right for me. And I have no doubt that this is right for me because, quite simply, this is what I want for myself now and would want for myself if I were ever incarnated in a system such as yours. In every situation I would always want to be able to choose for myself. I would never want to be at the mercy of some system – legal or otherwise – to decide what is best for me. What does a legal system care about me? What does it know of my unique situation and my experiences? Nothing. Legal systems and the like should be the final fallback position for when all else fails, not the first point of reference.
Z: What you say seems right and valid to me. I agree with this. Thank you, 8.
8: I'm glad you find value here. But the original point of this intellectual perambulation was actually to address the issue of death when there is choice involved. If you are offered the choice to have someone terminate your life and you have the absolute right to accept the offer or to reject it... then...
Z:... then I agree, this is not evil. I stand with you on this one. And I also say that I would always want the right to choose for myself. And I would therefore want to grant others that same right to choose. This is not evil. This is moral and right. That is my position too.
8: And everyone else can decide for themselves?
Z: Yes. Of course they have their own choices to make. As long as their choices do not take from me my right to choose for myself.
8: Hmm... yes... choices. You see the beauty of it? If we are saying that taking away the right to choose is evil, then offering someone more and more choices is... what?
Z: Well, if taking someone's right to choose away is evil, then offering someone more choices would be the opposite of evil.
8: That is a good answer.
Z: But what is the opposite of evil? Love?
8: It is hard to answer this question because, from my perspective, evil is a temporary, illusory experience and Love is a very powerful, very real, eternally valid force. I'd say love is certainly the correct response to evil. Love is that which quenches evil. But is it the opposite of evil? No.
The closest thing I can name as the opposite of evil would have to be “choice” or perhaps “creation”.
Z: Okay. It was just a point of curiosity anyway.
8: Let's move on then and finish this little section of the discussion with the final point. You named theft as the third evil act. So let's look at this.
How would it be if Person A were to ask Person B, "May I have your television set and your hi-fi, please?"
There is surely nothing evil about that?
Z: I wouldn't think so. If Person A agrees to Person B's request, then it is a gift that is given. That's not evil, that's just generosity. And if Person A said, "No," and Person B accepted that and went on his way, then there is also no harm done.
8: That's right. And we can play this out with as many more examples of what you might call evil behaviours as you like. The bottom line will always be that evil is only perceived to be done when choice seems to be removed. Put the choice back in and there is no evil.
Z: I see that, thanks 8. And thanks for your patience with the explanation too. I can certainly see your perspective that evil is the removal of the right to choose. But I'm not sure that's the whole of the story. I mean... what about a different definition like, “evil is the desire to cause another great harm” or “evil is harm for its own sake” or something like that?
8: I understand your desire to frame evil in terms of something “wrong” like “causing harm” but the problem is that such a definition just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. If I desire to cause you harm but instead of just doing it to you, I first ask you and you agree to it then...
Z: Well then I guess, it's just like all of your examples above. If I agree to it, then it isn't evil. If I have the right to say “no”, and you respect that, then obviously...
Okay. If there is a hole in your argument, then I really can't see it. I accept your definition, “evil is the removal of the other's right to choose.”
8: Okay, good. Except you missed something. I said:
"Evil is any action, which seems to take away a being's right to choose."
That part about "seems to" is very important. What it means is that I cannot really take your right to choose away. No one can do that. Not really. But you and I can agree to create the illusion thereof for ourselves.
Z: Ah, yes. By now I have had enough exposure to these concepts to see where this is going. It's the whole victim/perpetrator thing again, isn't it? I cannot truly be your victim. I can only have the illusion that I am.
8: Now you're getting it.
Z: And in the previous chapter you said that uncertainty was what presented us with choices. You said that these choices were creation and growth and life. You said that when there is absolute certainty then there are no more choices and therefore no more life. And since we are all a part of the ONE and none of us can be destroyed, that is not possible. So, in conclusion, if it is true that I cannot ever have absolute certainty then, in the same way, it must also be true that you cannot actually ever take away my right to choose!
8: Good! And so you see how all of the concepts tie in together – how they all interrelate and form one consistent, congruent whole?
Such is the nature of truth that you were asking me about in Chapter 8.
Z: I begin to feel that now.
8: Excellent. And that feeling is your truth. That feeling of rightness when everything adds up and is in balance and harmony in your being... that is your truth saying “yes”. You stumbled on this one a few times. You previously confused your ego-desires and your excitement with your truth. And it was necessary that you did this. You needed to see that mistake and learn from it. And then you made a new choice to always find your heart's truth and to honour and respect that. And so, here we are now. Now you are really finding your own truth inside yourself. It is that feeling of everything being right within yourself.
Z: I've got it, 8. Thank you. But we've gotten a little off track.
8: Not really. We'll come back to this realisation about “your truth” in a little while. For now, we have just discovered that no-one can truly take away your right to choose. But we can, of course, share an illusion in which I can seem to take from you your right to choose.
Z: So then evil is an illusory thing?
8: This is my perspective, yes. It is something that you can, within this reality you currently inhabit, seem to experience. It can seem very real to you. But it is still just an illusion. Let me tell you a truth about good and evil. It goes like this:
"There is not a single thing that is either good or evil, but that you feel that way about it."
Z: You're saying that nothing is intrinsically evil. Nothing at all. But some things might still feel evil to me?
8: That is exactly what I'm saying. Or I can rephrase it like this: evil does not exist objectively but it might certainly be experienced subjectively.
Z: Uhh... That is another way of saying I can feel like I am experiencing evil, but that does not mean it really, truly exists?
8: Correct.
Z: Okay, wow. I don't really know what to do with this information. Because I can totally get this intellectually. I've seen the argument and even felt the truth of it in my heart but... I don't know if I am yet willing to accept that all the wickedness and vileness, all the atrocities that have ever been committed and that continue to be committed are... what? An agreed-upon co-created illusion?
8: I understand. And that is why we must have this conversation. Because you must come to see it this way before you can ascend to Unity Consciousness. So I present you with a choice: on the one hand you can choose to continue to label certain beings and their behaviours as evil and, in so doing, you can keep yourself distanced and divorced from them, so that you can remain in a state of judgement of them and so you can keep feeling superior to them. On the other hand you can choose to be willing to come to an understanding that no-one is truly "other" than you, that nothing is eternally unlovable or unforgivable.
Z: And that's the choice? If I am not willing to come to see it this way then I can't ascend to unity consciousness?
8: That is the truth of it. As with all things, you always have a choice. This time your choice is between unity consciousness and duality (or separation) consciousness. Understand that there is no right or wrong about what you choose and no judgement of you for the choices you make. But what you choose defines who you are and creates the reality that you will experience. And, quite simply, you cannot become a being of Unity Consciousness and you cannot reside in a unity reality without being willing to see all as one, without being willing to see the "other" as "self" and without being willing to let go of the mechanisms of separation, such as judgement and hatred.
You see, my dear friend, this is the choice offered to you by duality. You can accept the offer of duality and continue to see yourself as separate from all else and travel ever outwards on the path of separation with fear as your motivator. Or, on the other hand, you can choose love. If you adhere to a choice for love, then you step onto the path of unity. You begin to travel back Home to oneness. It is true that you can, for some while, travel the path of love whilst still clinging to the illusion of separation. This is what happens with those who choose either the "Service to Other" or the "Service to Self" modes of being. And that is fine if that is what you choose. But sooner or later these paths too will converge and these beings will realise that the concepts of Other and Self are not what they first thought. That indeed there is only oneness.
If you follow what I am saying, then you will understand that it might seem as if there are many possible options and choices on your path. But really, it is not so. There is really only one choice.
Either you accept all as being one, or you create more separation.
The choice is yours. And you cannot move towards being one with All That Is, whilst still at the same time holding onto the view that some beings are so despicable and unlovable that you can simply refuse to accept them as being part of the oneness. That you can label them "evil" and thereby damn them to eternal darkness.
All is one. Or it is not. Your choice.
Z: You have explained that very well, thank you 8. I get it now. I must choose between two ideas. On the one hand there is the idea of certain beings being beyond all possibility of ever being loveable. And so we label them and their activities as evil. On the other hand is the understanding that all of this is just a temporary illusory state. And that all beings are inherently worthy of love and are a part of God. That I am truly one with all beings and all things everywhere.
8: Yes. That is the choice.
Z: Well then, I choose oneness.
8: That is well. But if you make this choice half-heartedly, then it is of no value. You must make it completely and truly from the heart before it will result in a change in your experience of life.
Z: I understand and I am ready to make that choice. Will you help me to release the last vestiges of the beliefs and choices that keep me on the path of separation?
8: Yes. I will. And that is why I choose to have this conversation about evil today.
Z: Why you chose? This topic was my choice!
8: Yes. Exactly. You will still understand this eventually.
Z: (I smile and shake my head) Okay, so let me try to summarise what I have understood from you about evil:
It is when I feel that I have had my options taken away from me that I feel as if evil is being done to me. But these occasions when I might experience this are illusory. That is to say that I have actually chosen the experience of having my choices taken away from me and I can, in fact, always choose other. No matter how it might seem to me at the time.
8: Yes. And the fact that you are experiencing this evil means that you are probably working quite hard at believing that you have no other choice but to experience it. This is what you have chosen. You, as a creator, have created the illusion that you are not a creator. And you, as an inseparable part of the oneness, have created the experience that you are completely separate and alone.
Z: Whew! That's quite a paradox, isn't it, 8?
8: Yes, it is. But is this not consistent with the way the universe would be if you were in fact the creator of your own reality?
Z: It is.
8: And the opposite would also be true. If you were prepared to begin to choose that you were one with all, as you have now chosen, then something interesting would happen: as you make this choice and as it becomes more manifest in your reality, so it would come to be that, in time, you will cease to experience evil.
Z: Really? Choosing for oneness means I will cease to experience evil?
8: Yes. The degree to which you know it to be true that you are really one with All That Is, is the degree to which you will no longer experience evil. You can only experience the illusion of evil whilst you reside in a state of separation. Of duality. Once you remember your intrinsic oneness, then you cannot experience evil being done to you, nor can you contemplate doing it to another. It is only in the state of separation or duality that you can either experience the actions of another being as evil, or indeed contemplate enacting evil upon another being.
Z: Can you explain that to me, 8?
8: Certainly. At the level of oneness it is impossible for me to set out to do any harm to you whatsoever.
Z: Why 8?
8: Precisely because I know that you and I are one! You see, all beings who reside in a place of unity consciousness, directly experience everything that they do to another as being done to themselves. If I hurt you, then instantly, with that very action, I hurt myself in exactly equal measure also. In fact, the hurt I do to you is the hurt I do to myself also. That is what happens at the level of unity consciousness. And, as I don't desire to hurt myself, I won't try to hurt you.
You on Earth are residing within an illusion of duality, which means you have an illusion that this is not so. The instrument of "time" is used to separate you from your choices, so you do not see that it is so that everything you do to others you are doing exactly and precisely to yourself also. But we, outside of the illusion of duality, see it directly. We are one. We know this. We experience it. What I do to you, I do to myself. So a unity conscious being will never seek to cause harm because that harm is harm to self.
Z: Wait a minute, 8, are you saying that everything I do to another I also directly do to myself? Literally?
8: Yes. It is so. But you have a clever illusion of time and space that separates you from your creations so that you can believe that it is not so. But it is so. Hurt another and you hurt yourself. You might need to travel a bit of time and space to feel the hurt and so you might not realise that you did it to yourself. And you might be able to tell yourself when the hurt comes back to you that it was another being who did it to you. That is the power of the illusion. But it is none-the-less so; everything you do to another, you do to yourself. Therefore it would be very wise to, "Do unto others exactly as you would have them do unto you." That is the best way to get treated as you wish to be treated.
Z: Okay, so if I walk up to a stranger and slap him through the face and run away then, after some time he will find me and hit me back?
8: Try not to be so simplistic in your thinking. Here is a better description:
What kind of a person would you be if you could just walk up to a stranger and slap him? Or perhaps a better way of asking this is, what kinds of beliefs are you expressing about yourself and about life, when you do this? Perhaps you are expressing a bratty child-like, “I don't give a damn and I can get away with anything,” kind of a feeling? So you take advantage of that stranger's unsuspecting, trusting nature. He is not defensive when you approach. So you slap him and run away. What you have actually done is shock him out of a feeling of trusting safety. You have stolen from him some of his innocence.
Now, it might seem to you that you selected this stranger at random, but you did not. You and he had a contract. This was agreed upon at higher levels. Quite simply, his soul needed this