Platos Gorgias
CALLICLES: I do not understand what you are saying.
CALLICLES: Very true.
GORGIAS: Nay, Callicles, answer, if only for our sakes;
SOCRATES: Then he ceases from pain and pleasure at we should like to hear the argument out.
the same moment?
CALLICLES: Yes, Gorgias, but I must complain of the CALLICLES: Yes.
habitual trifling of Socrates; he is always arguing about little and unworthy questions.
SOCRATES: But he does not cease from good and evil at the same moment, as you have admitted: do you still ad-GORGIAS: What matter? Your reputation, Callicles, is not here to what you said?
at stake. Let Socrates argue in his own fashion.
CALLICLES: Yes, I do; but what is the inference?
CALLICLES: Well, then, Socrates, you shall ask these little peddling questions, since Gorgias wishes to have them.
SOCRATES: Why, my friend, the inference is that the good is not the same as the pleasant, or the evil the same as the SOCRATES: I envy you, Callicles, for having been initi-painful; there is a cessation of pleasure and pain at the same ated into the great mysteries before you were initiated into moment; but not of good and evil, for they are different.
the lesser. I thought that this was not allowable. But to re-How then can pleasure be the same as good, or pain as turn to our argument:Does not a man cease from thirst-evil? And I would have you look at the matter in another ing and from the pleasure of drinking at the same moment?
light, which could hardly, I think, have been considered by you when you identified them: Are not the good good be-CALLICLES: True.
cause they have good present with them, as the beautiful are those who have beauty present with them?
SOCRATES: And if he is hungry, or has any other desire, does he not cease from the desire and the pleasure at the CALLICLES: Yes.
same moment?
SOCRATES: And do you call the fools and cowards good 119
Platos Gorgias
men? For you were saying just now that the courageous SOCRATES: Enough: And did you ever see a coward in and the wise are the goodwould you not say so?
battle?
CALLICLES: Certainly.
CALLICLES: To be sure.
SOCRATES: And did you never see a foolish child rejoicing?
SOCRATES: And which rejoiced most at the departure of the enemy, the coward or the brave?
CALLICLES: Yes, I have.
CALLICLES: I should say most of both; or at any rate, SOCRATES: And a foolish man too?
they rejoiced about equally.
CALLICLES: Yes, certainly; but what is your drift?
SOCRATES: No matter; then the cowards, and not only the brave, rejoice?
SOCRATES: Nothing particular, if you will only answer.
CALLICLES: Greatly.
CALLICLES: Yes, I have.
SOCRATES: And the foolish; so it would seem?
SOCRATES: And did you ever see a sensible man rejoicing or sorrowing?
CALLICLES: Yes.
CALLICLES: Yes.
SOCRATES: And are only the cowards pained at the approach of their enemies, or are the brave also pained?
SOCRATES: Which rejoice and sorrow mostthe wise or the foolish?
CALLICLES: Both are pained.
CALLICLES: They are much upon a par, I think, in that SOCRATES: And are they equally pained?
respect.