Platos Gorgias
CALLICLES: I should imagine that the cowards are more in good and evil? (i.e. in having more pleasure and more pained.
pain.)
SOCRATES: And are they not better pleased at the enemys CALLICLES: I really do not know what you mean.
departure?
SOCRATES: Why, do you not remember saying that the CALLICLES: I dare say.
good were good because good was present with them, and the evil because evil; and that pleasures were goods and SOCRATES: Then are the foolish and the wise and the pains evils?
cowards and the brave all pleased and pained, as you were saying, in nearly equal degree; but are the cowards more CALLICLES: Yes, I remember.
pleased and pained than the brave?
SOCRATES: And are not these pleasures or goods present CALLICLES: Yes.
to those who rejoiceif they do rejoice?
SOCRATES: But surely the wise and brave are the good, CALLICLES: Certainly.
and the foolish and the cowardly are the bad?
SOCRATES: Then those who rejoice are good when goods CALLICLES: Yes.
are present with them?
SOCRATES: Then the good and the bad are pleased and CALLICLES: Yes.
pained in a nearly equal degree?
SOCRATES: And those who are in pain have evil or sor-CALLICLES: Yes.
row present with them?
SOCRATES: Then are the good and bad good and bad in CALLICLES: Yes.
a nearly equal degree, or have the bad the advantage both 121
Platos Gorgias
SOCRATES: And would you still say that the evil are evil SOCRATES: And the foolish man and the coward to be by reason of the presence of evil?
evil?
CALLICLES: I should.
CALLICLES: Certainly.
SOCRATES: Then those who rejoice are good, and those SOCRATES: And he who has joy is good?
who are in pain evil?
CALLICLES: Yes.
CALLICLES: Yes.
SOCRATES: And he who is in pain is evil?
SOCRATES: The degrees of good and evil vary with the degrees of pleasure and of pain?
CALLICLES: Certainly.
CALLICLES: Yes.
SOCRATES: The good and evil both have joy and pain, but, perhaps, the evil has more of them?
SOCRATES: Have the wise man and the fool, the brave and the coward, joy and pain in nearly equal degrees? or CALLICLES: Yes.
would you say that the coward has more?
SOCRATES: Then must we not infer, that the bad man is CALLICLES: I should say that he has.
as good and bad as the good, or, perhaps, even better?is not this a further inference which follows equally with the SOCRATES: Help me then to draw out the conclusion preceding from the assertion that the good and the pleas-which follows from our admissions; for it is good to repeat ant are the same:can this be denied, Callicles?
and review what is good twice and thrice over, as they say.
Both the wise man and the brave man we allow to be good?
CALLICLES: I have been listening and making admissions to you, Socrates; and I remark that if a person grants you CALLICLES: Yes.
anything in play, you, like a child, want to keep hold and 122
Platos Gorgias
will not give it back. But do you really suppose that I or any SOCRATES: Take, for example, the bodily pleasures of other human being denies that some pleasures are good eating and drinking, which we were just now mentioning
and others bad?
you mean to say that those which promote health, or any other bodily excellence, are good, and their opposites evil?
SOCRATES: Alas, Callicles, how unfair you are! you certainly treat me as if I were a child, sometimes saying one CALLICLES: Certainly.
thing, and then another, as if you were meaning to deceive me. And yet I thought at first that you were my friend, and SOCRATES: And in the same way there are good pains would not have deceived me if you could have helped. But and there are evil pains?
I see that I was mistaken; and now I suppose that I must make the best of a bad business, as they said of old, and CALLICLES: To be sure.
take what I can get out of you.Well, then, as I understand you to say, I may assume that some pleasures are good and SOCRATES: And ought we not to choose and use the good others evil?
pleasures and pains?
CALLICLES: Yes.
CALLICLES: Certainly.
SOCRATES: The beneficial are good, and the hurtful are SOCRATES: But not the evil?
evil?
CALLICLES: Clearly.
CALLICLES: To be sure.
SOCRATES: Because, if you remember, Polus and I have SOCRATES: And the beneficial are those which do some agreed that all our actions are to be done for the sake of the good, and the hurtful are those which do some evil?
good;and will you agree with us in saying, that the good is the end of all our actions, and that all our actions are to be CALLICLES: Yes.
done for the sake of the good, and not the good for the sake of them?will you add a third vote to our two?